Congratulations, folks, you’ve made it to Part 3! I’m assuming you’ve already sat through Part 1 and Part 2 of the debate about all things AXANAR between myself and Australian blogger MATTHEW MILLER of Trekzone.org. The first two parts have received a few hundred views each, with lots of comments made on both sides of the Axanar controversy. But now it’s time to wrap things up with some of our most controversial discussions yet…
We begin by shifting our focus from CARLOS PEDRAZA and Axamonitor to Matt’s own Trekzone.org blog? Is he providing fair coverage, or does Trekzone suffer from the same skewed “telling only half the story” that Axamonitor (and some would say Fan Film Factor) suffer from?
Then we move onto one of the most controversial hot-button questions: have the Axanar detractors gone too far in their stalking and cyberbullying? How far is too far? And is the behavior just as bad on the supporter side, or is that sinply the false equivalency of “what aboutism”? And what does coffee have to do with anything?
Of course, we spend a little time debating whether ALEC PETERS paid himself a salary or just reimbursed himself for out-of-pocket expenses. And did other folks like VIC MIGNOGAM or JAMES CAWLEY ever earn anything personally from money paid by donors?
Moving on to the future of Axanar, we discuss the USS Ares bridge set. After hundreds of thousands of dollars in fan donations and out-of-pocket payments by Alec himself, and after thousands of man-hours in labor…will the bridge ever be used to film any scenes of the Axanar story?
And finally, even if Axanar never gets made, does Alec still deserve credit for making it as far as he did…despite all of the headwinds, a year-long lawsuit from two billion-dollar corporations, a move across country, and the almost constant attacks by dozens of detractors?
And what if Axanar does get made? What will it take to get a positive comment out of a detractor like Matthew Miller or Carlos Pedraza?
Is there ANY common ground to be had? Find out as the Blogger-Battle of the Axanar concludes…
14 thoughts on “The BLOGGER-BATTLE OF AXANAR! (part 3 of 3)”
I guess neither elephant is going in a different direction after 3 hours.
Sure took us long enough! 😉
Sorry that the detractors are giving you such a hard time, Matthew. Personally, I think you held your own pretty well…especially in Part 3. Hopefully, they’ll go a little easier on you this time.
By the way, did you notice that Carlos had time to write a SECOND 2,000-word blog about the debate (I think he desperately wants to be the “third debater” and make himself feel relevant…it’s kinda cute in a tragically pathetic sorta of way) and he STILL hasn’t had time to write even a single blog about Axacon…even after 45 days? Ah, well…priorities. Negative blogs: RUSH-RUSH-RUSH! Positive blogs: I’ll get to it when I get to it. (Oh, and did you notice that Carlos talks about himself in the third-person in his blogs? Weird! Jonathan Lane doesn’t do that when he writes his blogs on Fan Film Factor…does he?) 🙂
Anyway, thanks again for being a willing and, most of all, CIVIL sparring partner, Matthew. Hopefully, we set a good example for at least someone out there.
OKAY, bluntly, this part has been the most difficult for me to listen to when I’ve heard these same bloody stale arguments from other detractors time and time again.
From my perspective what Matthew (and other detractors) consistently seem to be unable to do is to divorce his personal sense of morality from the facts and the laws in question and to me it weakens his arguments to the point of being non-arguments (at best) no matter how many times he repeats himself.
Matthew argues he is allowed to have his own position/opinion, fare enough so are we all, but the problem is when you become morally invested you cannot divorce yourself from the situation. When you cannot divorce yourself from the situation you become emotionally invested in it and as soon as it’s emotional it tends to become personal. When it’s personal now every criticism against your position, no matter how rational and logical it may be, becomes a personal attack against YOU and guess what — when we feel we are being personally attacked WE FIGHT BACK and unfortunately some people don’t care if they fight dirty (under those circumstances).
But that’s just my opinion. Sorry to go a bit Yoda there (Fear leads to Angry, Angry leads to hate, hate leads to suffering and all) It’s actually not the strongest argument but it does tend to resonate.
Jonathan you are far more patient man than I would have been in that situation so good on you sir and thank you both for the debate.
As I explained in the debate, folks on both sides are riding their elephants, and that’s where the emotional investment comes in. No matter how much our mind might be convinced that we could potentially be wrong, the elephant keeps pulling us in the original direction. And so that dissonant part of our brain is tuned out, ignored, twisted, and/or reinterpreted. “Alec is a villain; he must be,” say the detractors. So everything else needs to fit that assumption. At first, they were certain that he would lose the lawsuit. He didn’t. So they had to convince themselves that the settlement skewed strongly in favor of CBS and Paramount because villains shouldn’t be able to get away with it. Then they were certain the bridge set wouldn’t be finished and all of this donor money got completely wasted. As that’s not seeming to be the case anymore, their arguments get adjusted and tweaked once again: “Well, now the sets won’t even get used for Axanar!” or “It’s been three years and still no fan film! Alec is so incompetent! That’s why most of the people he works with abandon him!”
These arguments aren’t simply the “same old gibberish” but rather a desperate attempt by the brain (the rider) to explain why the elephant is still going in the same direction (“Alec is a villain”). When Axanar is finally released, the arguments will change once again–likely to “It took too long!” or “You mean fans paid $2 million for this piece of crap??? What a frickin’ waste of money!” You just watch; it’ll happen,…I assure you. All because there’s nothing to make that elephant change direction.
Yes I remember you mention that earlier on and trust me I believe you when you predict how people are going to react; I’m just also thoroughly disappointed by it and the fact that it seems to be inevitable.
See I want to believe that, as human beings, we have the ability to overcome such limitations. That we have or at the very least are evolving towards the point where we can use reason and logic to recognize and challenge these things within ourselves and most importantly to actually change for the better. It is a naive notion perhaps but what’s the alternative?
Great insight btw I’m really enjoying discussing it. I will have to look up that book now as you’ve peaked my interest and I want to educate myself more. Thanks!
You’re welcome, Keith. There’s actually evolutionary advantages to the “hive” mentality. Groups that work together internally have a better chance for survival and prosperity through shared labor, defense, and resources. But how do you keep the groups cohesive? The best way: believe in something unquestioningly. The stronger the shared beliefs (and the more unshakable those beliefs), the stronger the bond of cohesion in the group. Unfortunately, that leads to tribalism in things today like politics, religion, and sadly, Star Trek.
Thanks again guys for more insight.
By it’s very definition donated money is money given to support a cause. (in this case fan films) Unless it was earmarked for camera’s or lighting or something. Then the donors don’t get a say in how it’s used.
However, I am sure if you messaged Alec and said he I got $15.37 and want it to go for VFX that he wouldn’t have an issue with doing that. lol
It’s no different than chunking $20 in the collection plate at church. Or tithing 10%. You certainly hope the money will be used for something important church-wise but ultimately it could end up going to the pastors kids soccer dues.
My feeling is that if getting the tires, helps Alec get back and forth to the studio to make Axanar, then there shouldn’t be an issue with that.
It’s the same thing with defining profit.
Profit is not just money. Just ask the NoJay Consortium.
I know for sure that these productions, collected camera, computers, lighting equipment, microphones and software and all these things will help them with future projects, since you don’t just throw that in the street. That includes the exact replica of the star trek sets at Desilu.
You can split hairs all you want but the fact is that Cawley wouldn’t have those sets if not for the generosity of Star Trek fans and the previous work done on Star Trek fan films.
And I don’t begrudge him for what he ultimately decided to do with them.
I just looked at Tim Russ’s Page and he lists all his Trek fan films credits – as he should since that’s all part of his experience for future projects.
So I am sorry Matt but if you say these other productions didn’t profit from Star Trek. then your being disingenuous.
Also no one cares about sushi or coffee or tires for that matter. What we care about is good quality Star Trek.
One thing more I want to touch on, is the personal attacks.
We unfortunately live in a world, where people are just wacko for no good reason.
When we were getting the band back together. I started watching the voice to try and get a finger on stuff that’s popular.
There was a singer on there named Christina Grimme. She didn’t win and then later at a personal appearance she was shot to death.
Not long after that some dude shot up an X-Box Madden tournament of all things.
Additionally it seems that everyone is hating on one aspect of the fandom or another.
Considering the way things are I’d take all that stuff seriously, and shame on those who get off on it.
What I’d like to see in part 4… is some solutions.. How do we heal the rifts. and get people excited about Star Trek, Star Trek fan films and other Scifi again.
I’m intrigued about your final idea, Mickey. But honestly, I don’t have any ideas for how to heal the rifts aside from telling the detractors to just let it go and get on with their lives…and so far, that advice has gone mostly unheeded.
Well for starters I’d suggest consulting Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #76….
Also remember that every journey begins with a single step.
Beyond that, as we talked about earlier. Getting Trek out from behind the paywall would be the best way to increase the herd.
The solution for fans cannot, in my opinion, involve suggesting a change of business strategy for CBS. They have made their choice, and that is the reality in which we operate. If fans can’t all learn to accept that reality, then I doubt we’ll be able come together over anything else involving Star Trek. Heck, we can’t even all agree on who the best starship captain is! 🙂
So, if there is “nothing that says that they can’t film extra footage just for the donors”, is it at all conceivable that the entire 90-minute version might become available this way?
I know that I’m probably dreaming,
But, if only……
There will be a full audio version of the 90-minute script…along with a novelization. Unfortunately, in order to film all 90 minutes, you’d still need over a million dollars (maybe two)…just like last time. In addition to the bridge set, you need Garth’s quarters, the transporter room, turbolift, the Klingon bridge, corridors, parts of engineering (and of course, more studio space to build all of those sets), on-location shoots, green screen compositing, VFX, and a LOT more actors (including way more time for Gary, J.G., Kate, the actor playing Mor’o–they do get paid, you know—and a host of others)…plus more make-up time and resources, more production time for film crews, more costumes, more music, more editing, more disk storage…the list goes on and on.
Right now, Alec is focused on raising just the $100-200K to make the two 15-minute fan films. Trying to do the whole 90 minutes in front of cameras requires ten times that amount. So yeah…you’re probably dreaming. 🙂
There will most likely be no ‘healing’. This is oddly reminiscent of our current state of politics. People are so invested in ‘their side’ that the other side could cure cancer and then be accused of being responsible for overpopulation. The fact is the detractors are so invested in their paradigm that nothing will change their minds. They are not intellectually honest or mature enough to admit they have been wrong and they will digest any lie that maintains their stance. There is ZERO objectivity. This sort of thinking is why I have now divorced myself from political conversations: people are more concerned with being right than they are with being correct. The fact is CBS could ring us up tomorrow and say, “Hey, we want to incorporate AXANAR in to canon and support your work” and the detractors would claim Russian Collusion. At this point its not even worth arguing. The detractors have shown themselves to be woefully and willfully disinterested in truth. They have invested in an agenda so deeply they are willing to look foolish to avoid looking foolish. Irony.
“people are more concerned with being right than they are with being correct.”
I love that quote! I’m going to use it, Don, if that’s okay.
And yeah, as I said in the 3-hour debate, each side is riding an elephant that is going wherever it damn well wants. So the rider, trying to explain the elephant’s direction, justifies it by saying, “Oh, the elephant is heading left because it’s a hot day and I know there’s water in that direction.” But the elephant is the ultimate decider, not the rider. Their elephants have all decided that Alec is a villain, so they have to now justify that foregone conclusion in their minds.
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