(My apologies in advance for the length of this blog. But I think the current situation merits it.)
As you probably know, there are certain areas on the Internet (mostly Facebook) where many of the most hard-core AXANAR detractors congregate and feed off of one anothers’ obsessive antipathy toward this fan project and its show-runner. Just look at the image to the left. Here’s a detractor who has spent countless hours creating literally dozens and dozens of these faux movie posters…each of them denouncing ALEC PETERS and Axanar, hurling insults and accusations, and mocking Axanar supporters (like good ol’ “Slow” Lane here—they love calling me that for some childish reason).
Most of the time, this “fear and loathing” of all things Axanar remains safely locked away in the echo chambers of these Facebook groups. But last week, I was concerned to read the following message posted on the main Axamonitor Facebook page by SHAWN O’HALLORAN……
It’s been brought to my attention that someone who is apparently an Axanar detractor is using a sock puppet going by the name of Bud Lee to contact and harass not just Alec Peters and his supporters, but the FAMILY MEMBERS (plural) of said supporters.
On behalf of the admins of Axamonitor, let me make our position on this issue crystal clear: that behavior will not be tolerated. There is no excuse for EVER contacting someone’s family member because they’re a vocal supporter of Peters and if it’s discovered that a member of this group is engaged in that behavior, they will be removed from the group and permanently banned.
That said, we have our suspicions on who the perpetrator is and they were banned a couple of months ago. We will continue to investigate it but if you’re in here, understand that you’re on notice and I have a nose for ferreting out sock puppet IDs.
Also, if anyone else has an idea of who Bud Lee is, please contact myself, Carlos, Jody or Johnpaul.
Thanks for you cooperation and I apologize for having to come off as such a dick about this but I’ve been the victim of this before and it’s not something I’d wish on anyone.
Now, you might think you know why I find this troubling. You’d be wrong.
Oh, sure, it deeply concerns me that there’s a person out there creating fake user accounts to send harassing IMs to not only Alec Peters but also to family members of Axanar supporters. These kinds of “sock puppet” accounts have been used before, like when a detractor (who may or may not be Peoria, IL-based Anthony Shuh) stalked the social media accounts of a local Peoria TV newswoman to create the fake identity of Nikky Synder.
And of course, detractors have stalked, mocked, and harassed Alec Peters’ girlfriend CRYSSTAL HUBBARD for nearly two years, and they’ve tried on many occasions to sabotage the Axanar production itself by doing things which include:
1) When Alec was still trying to rent out Industry Studios in Valencia, CA to help pay the rent, detractors posted multiple fake, negative yelp reviews saying things like, “When we filmed there, we could smell rat feces.”
2) After the announcement of OWC Digital sponsoring the new Axanar studio in Lawrenceville, GA, detractors contacted OWC directly via tweet, e-mail, and social media criticizing their association with Alec Peters.
3) One detractor even went up to GARY GRAHAM’s autograph table at a Star Trek convention and tried to talk him OUT of returning to play Soval in the upcoming Axanar 2-part film. Yes, that really happened…as Gary later told Alec about the conversation.
4) And as I covered in a blog interview with former detractor JOE DIAZ, folks in the Axamonitor Facebook group recently tried to sabotage the so-called “garage kitters” by reporting them to CBS simply because one of these hobbyist folks decided to release a customized model of a starship from Prelude to Axanar.
So yes, that’s all very troubling to me and many others…and it certainly makes the detractors look a hundred times worse than anything they accuse Alec Peters of doing.
But what’s even MORE troubling to me is what Shawn O’Halloran did NOT say…
Notice that the catalyst for this message wasn’t the harassing of Alec and/or his supporters but rather the harassment of FAMILY MEMBERS. In other words, it’s okay to harass Alec and his supporters, but the red line is apparently family members. Harassment = okay (just keep it to Alec Peters and his supporters).
You say I’m overreacting? Shawn didn’t really say that? Well, let’s take a look at what he DID say: “There is no excuse for EVER contacting someone’s family member because they’re a vocal supporter of Peters…” Now let’s look at what he did NOT say: anything about harassment of Alec Peters himself or his supporters being inappropriate…only against “family members.” Shawn didn’t mention any problem with cyber-bullying of Alec and his supporters directly.
And that’s because he and the detractors do it…a lot.
Let me tellya, folks, these guys can be pretty cruel. And believe it or not, family members can be targets, too…even if contacting them directly is a “no-no.” Take a look at what was posted to the Axanamonitor Facebook group last week…
Notice how only one person spoke up to say anything to admonish both Terry and Gabe…and it wasNOT group administrator/owner Carlos Pedraza. Nope, Carlos just told folks to Google a picture of Lane’s spouse. So one would assume Carlos was perfectly fine with a conversation that made fun of not only me but also my wife Wendy (who, for the record, is actually quite attractive, very sweet, and also a wonderful mother to our son…and no, Gabe, I don’t have diabetes).
Their Facebook group is usually fine with such things. In fact, they revel in it and cheer each other on…and the more lewd and hurtful, the more they love it.
But if you think about it a little more, you might stop and ask yourself the following profoundly obvious question:
WHAT EXACTLY DID JONATHAN LANE DO TO DESERVE THIS?
Really, think about it.
I never crowd-funded anything, nor did I pay myself a “salary.” At most, my son and I were treated to lunch one day in exchange for spending six hours sorting patches, folding posters, and stuffing envelopes. I’ve never lied about anything (or if I’ve published something wrong, I’ve quickly posted a correction). And for the most part, I try to be polite and civil to the vast majority of folks (even most detractors, who seldom offer me the same courtesy)…and I never call people names or swear at them.
So what did I do to merit the taunts, insults, and harassment of the detractors? I’ll tell you what I did:
I disagreed with them!
I stood by my friend Alec, defended him, and stayed loyal to the project and the people behind Axanar.
And worse than that, I held firm to my convictions despite every argument the detractors could throw at me. (Did you know that GABE KOERNER still e-mails me every few weeks with yet another ridiculous attempt to convince me that Alec is nefarious or incompetent or something similarly nasty…and this has been going on for over a year now? Give it up, man!)
Even worse, I’ve had the audacity to dispute and even correct much of the detractors’ misinformation and to counter their most outrageous accusations with actual facts…again and again and again and again.
And worst of all, I write a blog. I’m not simply defending Alec Peters and Axanar in some quiet out-of-the-way corner of the Internet where no one will ever read my words. My blog posts are getting thousands of views and dozens of comments. I am loud and proud as I stand up for Alec.
And for this, my wife gets compared to a Wookiee. How mature.
To the detractors’ credit, after a couple of days, someone did take those comments down. But I notice that nowhere in Shawn O’Halloran’s “shame on you!” announcement does he say anything about Terry and Gabe’s nasty comments about “Slow” Lane and his wife that were made just days earlier.
Now, I want you to understand that I am NOT suggesting that everyone who has a beef with Alec Peters and/or Axanar acts in morally reprehensible ways. There are many detractors who generally behave themselves and simply disagree with how Alec decided to spend the money donated to the Axanar project.
But these same detractors typically remain silent while the schoolyard bullies gleefully do their dirty work. In the screen cap above, only one person stood up to Terry (thank you, Duane). Another, Edward Darlow (who frequency comments to this blog), almost stood up to Terry but then quickly backed down.
And that’s really the problem, isn’t it? The detractors have created a toxic environment for themselves where standing up to the bullies simply isn’t worth the hassle. No one wants the bullies to suddenly turn on them, as happened recently with the garage kit incident. So the inmates run the asylum, and bad behavior is either ignored, tolerated, or worse yet, often encouraged and cheered on by the other bullies.
So it’s no wonder that one of their own thought it would be okay to set up a fake “sock puppet” account (possibly more than one) and harass Axanar supporters’ family members with crass and unwelcome IMs. Sorry, Shawn, but you detractors have created a monster…and it might indeed be too late to get that monster back under control.
It’s obvious that Shawn posted his “outrage” as a way to make the detractors appear somehow righteous and morally superior. But in reality, the opposite is true…and his own words betray him and his group as he condemns ONLY the direct harassment of “family members” of Axanar supporters while voicing NO such disapproval for the harassment and cyber-bullying behavior being practiced on the Axanar supporters themselves.
Cyber-bullying is NEVER acceptable, folks. Never. I don’t care how the detractors try to justify it by saying that Alec and his supporters somehow deserve this vile treatment. It’s just wrong…period.
So I found Shawn’s pontificating post to be both disingenuous and outright hypocritical. As former detractor Joe Diaz IM’d to me after he read Shawn’s comment: “It’s not harassment when they are going after a group….but oh man…this guy is doing a bad thing so let’s all jump on the ‘for shame’ bandwagon so we make ourselves feel better. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black.”
Actually, if you ask me, the pot is much blacker than the kettle when it comes to the detractors’ behavior. Whatever “crimes” they feel were committed by Alec Peters, their own actions are reprehensibly worse by orders of magnitude. They purposefully mock, insult, and bully others. That’s not some vague concept of alleged copyright infringement against a multi-billion dollar corporation. That’s not deciding to build a studio rather than renting one. That’s not being late on delivering perks or buying sushi lunches and new tires. That’s maliciously hurting others…and the detractors are reveling in it.
They applaud these online attacks on individuals. They cheer attempts to sabotage a fan film that thousands of people donated to. (Really, Shawn, trying to talk Gary Graham out of appearing in the upcoming Axanar fan film? Who does that?) They publicly mock, belittle, taunt, accuse, and yes, HARASS people who have chosen to stick with Alec Peters and support him. They only draw the line at directly harassing “family members”…and even then, they seem to be perfectly fine with insulting spouses (well, except for Duane Browning…thanks again, dude).
If you’re a detractor like Duane who ISN’T proud of this kind of cyber-bullying behavior, if you think it cheapens the very cause you signed onto by making your group look a hundred times worse than Alec Peters, then I challenge you to STAND UP to the cyber-bullying when you see it happening. Your silence indicates tacit support and approval…and I think you know that.
My words here today will mean nothing to to the bullies—and I’m sure you’ll see those same kinds of snarky and vitriolic comments posted all over the Axamonitor Facebook page (and likely elsewhere) before the day is even half over.
But YOUR words, stepping forward to say, “Hey, this is NOT okay—cut it out!” have power. And sure, the bullies will probably turn on you just like they did with Joe Diaz when he spoke up. And if it’s only one or two of you, this kind of malicious behavior will surely go on. But that’s why everyone needs to speak up. You DO have the power to overcome the bullies.
And if it’s true that only a few bad seeds are tainting the detractors’ reputation and blunting the impact of your arguments, and if enough members of your detractor community speak up, then you can force these childish and toxic low-lifes to either clean up their acts or slink back under their rocks.
Detractors, it’s your choice.
This is just reflective of our society. When easy to use settings like Facebook showed up, the manacles came off the loony bin and they now have a field day with whatever insanity they want to peddle. It is the same with most liberal agenda items too, and the lamestream media has also fostered the name calling, “knock them down with propaganda” policies. A certain group in the 30’s and 40’s perfected the art of demonizing your enemy, and it has perpetuated itself in various forms up to today. Politicians are constantly in a revolving magazine of attacks and denials, and fabrications to justify whatever they do. The fact Axamonitor is a dark cave of intellectual dishonesty and emotional diatribes, is not new or amazing. It does say a lot about the levels people will now stoop to to think they are superior to everyone else. One would think they would take up Trump bashing, since that is a much easier activity, requiring no thought, whereas Alec bashing (and Jonathan bashing) requires a lot of work to make stuff up, run it around the blender enough to get it to where it makes some sort of sense, and then spit it out. The poster dude ought to go work for the DNC, the need some good help…. Your points are all valid, but will just bounce off them, they have the Teflon emotional shield that allows them to pull the wings off flies in the name of “science” and convince themselves it is true. Karma will come for them in time…..
I find it fascinating that, in a post where you lament that society has descended into name-calling, “demonizing your enemy,” and “knock them down with propaganda,” that you used the terms “lamestream media” and “liberal agenda.”
That shows how the frustration of dealing with such torment for so many years has impacted the language, the blatant abuse, such as you also described from the Anti Axanar crowd, has exploded to the point “lamestream media” is not a name, but an accurate description. ” Liberal agenda” also falls into a accurate descriptor space, as it is presented by Liberal, and their agenda is quite clear. However, if we needed to go further, I would point to the use of emotional labels such as “racist”, “homophobic” “war monger” to name a few, that routinely are applied with no evidence or facts to back them up. The Anti Axanar crowd follow the same pattern, especially with the attack on your wife, the righteous use of the “we don’t go after family, just targets” and the innumerable names and labels applied to you and Alec with no evidence or facts. Because they label you, it must be true?
Your point is valid, though, I do tend to fall into the pit of despair and follow that path, as my tolerance for arrogant people who need to trash others to get their way or feel good has become about 1milliseconds worth.
It’s easy to act like this on the Internet when they know you can’t reach out of the screen and give them the throat punch they so richly deserve.
OK, just kidding about the violence but you get the idea.
Yep.
G.I.F.T. in action.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT
Actually, I’m reading an excellent book at the moment called “The Righteous Mind” that explains what’s happening to our society on a psychological and even evolutionary level. Apparently, we’ve evolved to be self-righteous dicks:
https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/B008OEMNNQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523649676&sr=8-1&keywords=the+righteous+mind
Seriously, it’s a fascinating read!
Your post struck a nerve as, coincidentally, I read it immediately after watching a yahoo story on a 4th grader who has been bullied since 1st grade. (link below)
It’s obvious that so called “adult” bullies have adapted and learned to transfer their “schoolyard” tactics online, using that ability to wreak havoc in folk’s lives like (almost) never before…not just with these Star Trek fan groups, but across every aspect of online society. It makes me think of how articles say to watch for kids’ anti-social behavior as clues to who might grow up to be a serial killer. (Starting out with cruelty to animals, apparently.) Similarly, young bullies are growing up to be older bullies. We’ve all read stories of kids who have committed suicide after being cyber-bullied. While many adults are strong enough to withstand whatever cyber bullies might dish out, not all adults are. What, if any, remorse are cyber bullies going to feel if they impact or potentially ruin the social or business life of someone or impact their mental stability to the point of withdrawal from society or possible suicide? They might have the grace to feel a little sadness/regret/shame, but will probably roundly congratulate themselves before they continue their same behavior.
I feel as if the lack of monitoring/control of such public media has allowed those “schoolyard bullies” to have a much wider reach and potentially cause a lot more damage, than the old one-on-one (or 4 on 1 as for the poor girl in the news story). IF this Internet-wide cyber bullying is allowed to continue, as more and more people are unrestrained as they let loose these “inner demons” that used to be under censure as being against acceptable social norms, I feel that the Internet behavior will seep into the “real world”. After all, if people can get away with extreme bullying for hours on end online, why not treat your neighbor the same way? Why not treat anyone who disagrees with you the same way?
I feel our society is in serious jeopardy. It’s going to take massive public response to change direction and to get the big companies (like Facebook) to self-regulate. I know many will disagree, but I also feel it’s unlikely that we’ll see any useful federal legislation. (It’s a lot like the issues of gun regulation, in many ways!) On the one hand we see the general stalemate between the two political parties with their wildly differing agendas. On the other hand we see the president modeling the exact opposite of the polite social interactions most of us (for now) prefer: poor ethics and morals, delight in creating chaos AND continual Twitter cyber bullying.
I feel that if the online behavior continues unchecked, this “schoolyard” bullying will become the new social norm and, as my Mom used to say, America is going to “go to Hell in a handbasket.”
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/10-olds-heartbreaking-plea-facebook-stop-bullying-sparks-203705241–abc-news-parenting.html
Excellent post, Tory.
I’d like to share something with anyone who bothers reading down the comments. Back in elementary and high school in the 1970s and 80s, I was mocked and bullied quite a bit. I was overweight, the brainy kid who sucked at sports, the sci-fi nerd during a time when such things weren’t mainstream yet, teacher’s pet, socially awkward…you know the drill. Rather than “Slow Lane,” my cruel nickname back then was “Lame Brain.” (Not sure which epithet I prefer.)
A decade of that, ironically, helped prepare me for my experiences on social media. Onc of the reasons that the detractor taunts don’t bother me is because I built up such a thick skin back then. Interestingly, those taunts faded away when I went to college at Cornell, and I spent the next twenty years enjoying a mostly taunt-free life. I became successful in business (reasonably), gained some notoriety in my industry (multimedia marketing), appeared on a magazine cover, traveled to Antarctica, worked for Willy Wonka, and even became a professional Trekkie for a time working freelance for Paramount Licensing as a consultant. Life was good, and the bullies were gone.
When social media brought bullies back into my life in 2008, I eventually found that I had “muscle memory” of my thick skin techniques from back in school. At first for a short time, the renewed taunting really bothered me, and sometimes I lashed out. But in reasonably short order, I remembered how to “water off a duck’s back” my way through all the vitriol and venom.
Like you, Tory, I don’t believe we, as a society, will be able to stop the online bullying now that the social media “Pandora’s box” has been opened. So when it comes to my son Jayden, I’ve decided to take another tack. Jayden was first bullied in pre-kindergarten by a kindergartener (three in fact!–can you believe it???). And I know he’ll have to deal with it, unfortunately, likely for the rest of his life in one form or another. Karate classes will take care of the physical to a point (he’s an advanced yellow belt). But what about the mental, emotional, and social media bullying…the name-calling and taunting that so many rely on to make themselves feel superior?
For that, I told Jayden the following…
“Hey, Jayden. A rock just fell on your head!”
“What?” he asked.
“A rock. A great, big rock. It just fell on your head! Oh, look, there’s another! CRASH! It just fell on your head.”
“No it didn’t, Daddy.”
“Yes, it did. And there’s a third one! Uh-oh, all these rocks are falling on your head! Does it hurt?”
“No.”
“Why not?” I asked.
“Because they’re not really falling on my head. You’re just SAYING that.”
“So my words don’t hurt you because they’re only words?”
And we went from there. Of course, I then had to explain to Jayden that not everyone knows this secret, and that his words can hurt others if those people don’t realize that words can’t really hurt you. So don’t use words as weapons…ever. Granted, Jayden is only seven, and it won’t always be this easy. But I feel that, if cyber-bullying is going to become the new normal, then the best thing I can do for my son is give him the cyber-bullying equivalent of a flu shot.
We’ll see what happens. Thanks for the great comment.
Thanks for sharing all that. It really made me think and wonder..as my background was somewhat similar, except I was never bullied in school. I was one of 5 Christians in a class of mostly wealthier Jewish kids. (University of Chicago community, with a lot of professors’ families.) Those kids weren’t saints by a long shot, but if they didn’t like someone they just froze him/her out of the “in group”. They never did anything agressive against anyone they didn’t like. Wonder whether there was some sort of cultural anti-bullying bias? Also, as an only child, I already had a “thick skin” – a book in front of my nose a lot of the time. LOL I guess all the early book reading gave me an appreciation of the idea that “not everyone is the same and it’s OK”. It was a totally different situation at high school where I another minority – a white girl in a 95% black school…the home of big local gang…the Blackstone Rangers. Because of Facebook and some “memories of…” pages, I now know that several of the guys were bullied on their way home from school, but at the time I had no awareness of it. Guess I was lucky at both schools. In college, I went into a field that was mostly men and again had no problems. It’s crazy, but it wasn’t until I went to work that I wound up being bullied (one of my many female coworkers) and, never having had to deal with it before, was totally unprepared for it. So maybe I wasn’t that lucky after all about no bullying in school. Still, everything turned out OK in the end, so I’m a “happy camper”.
However, I absolutely LOVE your “words don’t hurt” explanation with Jayden! Do you mind if I share that story with some of my younger friends who have kids? I think it’s great.
Please do! It was a bit of flash inspiration that almost backfired. Warn your friends that my son Jayden’s first reaction was, “Oh, so if I say something to hurt someone else, it won’t really hurt them?”
No! No! NO!!! That is NOT what I meant!!!! 🙂
Not that two wrongs ever make a right, but I find it hilarious that you’re calling out this behaviour without admonishing your side and role in this as well.
I’ve been personally blamed publicly by Alec Peters for no refunds being given to donors. That was followed by much abuse by disgruntled donors and AxaFans. Another time a rabid AxaFan from his home state of Washington tracked me down and called me at my work in the UK. You claime politeness to “detractors” in your blog but your veiled insults are numerous and you allow your fellow AxaFans to insult with impunity.
Then of course you have dozens of people that have been PM’d by Alec Peters and insulted and/or threatened. Also how could you forget Robert Burnett tweeting out Shawn’s home address because he thought he was @Tampaxanar?
So please, if you’re going to call someone or a group out for their behaviour make sure your own house is in order. Otherwise you look like just as much of a hypocrite.
You are correct, Sandy, two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m sorry that Jeff Craig called you at work. What did he say? Did anyone else ever receive a call from an Axanar supporter at their place of work…or was this just an isolated incident?
Obviously, I’ve never called you at work, Sandy. I’ve never called your wife or anyone’s wife a wookiee. In fact, I’ve never talked about your family at all, and I’ve certainly never trolled you with unsolicited drive-by zingers like this one from yesterday:
You even brag about trolling me:
I’ve never trolled you, Sandy. I’ve responded in kind, but I’ve never started anything. And to be honest, I think I’ve been infinitely less acerbic to you than you’ve been to me.
So no, I don’t believe I’m being hypocritical at all. I set a higher standard for my behavior than the detractors do, Sandy…MUCH higher.
And I’ve never condoned Alec’s online rants at the detractors, and I’ve said that publicly multiple times. But I will also say that, like me, Alec doesn’t initiate conflicts. He responds to cyber-bullying aggressively. I choose not to be quite as incendiary. As for other Axanar supporters, while I’ve heard of a few incidents, many I cannot independently verify. However, even if all are true, I think the scale leans significantly farther in the direction of detractor cyber-bullying than such behavior by Axanar supporters.
If I’m wrong, feel free to start up a blog and correct me. 🙂
I have better and more important things to do than start a blog, thanks.
We’re not talking about levels or scale or what is worse, we’re talking about hypocrisy. I have no idea if anyone else has been called at work or if anyone else has been doxxed and it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that both groups are guilty of this but in your editorial you fail to call it out. That is the very definition of hypocrisy.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. 🙂
“I have better and more important things to do than start a blog, thanks. ”
Yeah, like trolling them….
Yeah, Sandy does seem to put an inordinate amount of time into something with almost no payoff. I mean, where exactly is the finish line? How does Sandy ever decide that he’s “won”?
Jeff Craig, the fellow who called you, Sandy, posted this to Facebook. I thought I’d include it here if you wanted to respond:
“I’ve never denied making that call to Greenberg to try and get him to back the hell off with his attacks on Axanar supporters like myself and his attacks on Diana, Crysstal and Alec. I never once threatened him, and in fact his response was a shocked, ‘I’m at work and can’t talk right now’, at which point he hung up on me – then he got on Axamonitor and LIED his ass off.
I’ve tried to bury the hatchet, bridge the Rubicon, pick your euphemism – but not one of you ‘haters’ pulls your head out of your keester enough to stop screaming. Then someone (probably Greenberg) tracked down my home address and shipped me a ‘bag of dicks’. When I went to Shawn trying to get him to call that a foul ball, he said it was fair game because I was a friend of Alec.
Then there is that turd, Justin Burton, who has tried MULTIPLE times to get me fired, by saying I was threatening him when I was at work.
So, please, cut it with your frigging ‘crocodile tears’. If you donated to Axanar, CBS screwed you and I alike. Anything else between Axamonitor members and myself was an escalation of YOUR GROUPS attacks on me.
If I say I want to have a beer with someone IRL, its to try and bury the hatchet wthout the keyboard in the way. If someone refuses to man up and own what they say, as I have, then they have less credibility than they have honor.”
You are engaging in classic “Whataboutism” where you try to defend or at least deflect criticism from those you support by just accusing the “other side” of the same tactics. It’s a petty, two-wrongs-make-a-right sort of red herring that people usually resort to when more factual/logical responses are impossible, yet they refuse to admit the mistake.
The Axanar detractor crowd is dominated with a small cadre of highly maladjusted, even potentially psychopathic, individuals promoting what amounts to their own twisted conspiracy theory. If you want to see things get better you need to accept how bad things are with these detractors, divorce yourself from them, and try to redeem whatever positives they might have originally represented. Anything less just sabotages your arguments.
The definition of psychopath includes the following:
1) A disregard for laws and social mores
2) A disregard for the rights of others
3) A failure to feel remorse or guilt
4) A tendency to display violent behavior
So let’s take a look at the detractors’ behavior to see if they really are psychopathic…
1) Although there are laws against cyber-bullying and libel, that’s not really the kinds of laws the above definition is dealing with. If you look at item #4 (a tendency to display violent behavior), psychopaths are usually unconcerned about laws dealing with assault or murder. They casually beat the crap out of people, blow them up, torture them, shoot them, decapitate them, etc. without feeling any remorse. But bullying, while morally wrong, isn’t necessarily aberrant behavior. It’s done from school yards to office settings to the White House. In this way, I wouldn’t classify the detractors as psychopathic based on this first aspect.
2) On the other hand, the detractors certainly have a disregard for the rights of others. In the case of Alec and the Axanar supporters, that right isn’t so much a legal one as a moral one: do unto others as you would have done to you. We all deserve respect. We all should treat each other fairly and not harass, troll, taunt, or malign others…and certainly not with lewd, vile, and disgusting memes like this one that Sandy Greenberg recently made with my photo…
No matter how much of a righteous, moral posture Sandy tries to take, there’s no excuse or justification for ever posting anything like that. It’s disgusting and uncalled for and only serves to make Sandy himself look a million times more of a low-class loser than Alec or I will ever be. So no check mark for #1, but a definite check mark for #2.
3) Do folks like Sandy or Shawn or Gabe or Terry or any of the rest feel remorse or guilt over what they’ve done online? I obviously can’t read their emotions like Counselor Deanna Troi, but outwardly, they all seem very proud of their antics and confident in the righteousness of their deplorable behavior. I’m willing to bet that Sandy would never apologize to me or Alec for posting that meme, or if he ever did, it would simply be because Lane just said, “I’m willing to bet that Sandy would never apologize for posting that meme.” 🙂
But seriously, no, I don’t think any of these detractors feels the slightest twinge of regret over anything they’ve said or done. But in the case of psychopathy, that’s actually because of a brain deficiency. Psychopaths are literally born without a conscience. It’s like being born without hearing or sight. A psychopath could no more feel remorse than a blind person could tell you the color of a passing car. That said, I don’t think these detractor folks are actually suffering from brain damage. Although they’ve never sincerely apologized to Alec or any Axanar supporter (Gabe has faked it a few times–meaning he’s apologized and gone right back to doing the same thing he’d just apologized for), I think that’s more because they’re just so addicted to the “fun” of mocking others and feel so morally superior in doing it (not ever allowing themselves to take a hard look at their actions from an outsider’s point of view and seeing the naked shame of it all).
So on #3, well, it’s kind of a toss-up.
4) As for violent behavior, thank goodness, that hasn’t been an aspect of the detractors’ behavior. A detractor did once try to break into Ares Studios, but when he was stopped and confronted, he backed down quickly and slinked off. Alec was stalked by Gabe with a video phone in Las Vegas, but neither he nor Crysstal were ever assaulted physically. So no, I don’t think the detractors qualify for #4.
So the final score for the detractors on the psychopath scale is two definite NOs, one definite YES, and one tie…for a final score of 1.5 out of 4 for being psychopaths. In that way, I’d say that no, they are NOT psychopathic. That said, we should all be striving for a score of zero, and when you take that into consideration, the detractors don’t have much to brag about.
Oh, snap!
Glad someone read that. 🙂
And I thought you were talking about me. I was so disappointed!
You were mentioned, Edward. You got partial credit for telling Terry to “be nice.” For full credit, though, it would have required some follow-though. 🙂
Good day Jonathan and good day for everyone,
it’s been a long time since I wanted to write about the Axanar project
but many times I let it go. Today I decided
because frankly the vase is full of all this hate.
I decided to collaborate on the Axanar project (costumes)
because I like it, because it gives me joy and I hope this
project if everything goes Ok, will give joy to many people.
I spoke and I always talk with Alec about the future, the past
is gone. There were mistakes, perhaps, but we are in 2018
it’s time to turn the page. For the detractors I would say,
if all goes well we will want to be judged on the implementation of
Axanar and hopefully well, for the rest I say who throws too much mud a
regardless it ends up becoming mud itself. Star Trek is love,
it has been and always will be, ingenuity perhaps, but I prefer to live
with people who love tather than to live with people they hate.
These are questions of choices.
Sorry for my terrible english !
Your English is INFINITELY better than my French, mon ami! 🙂
Jonathan, it’s poetic irony for me to find you disgruntled about the inappropriate behavior of Admins and Moderators considering what transpired between your ‘moderators’ and myself on facebook. I have no ill will toward you and I don’t wish you and your wife any ill will. I’m quite at peace with our separation. But it’s been my experience these niche groups and forums are merely theaters of bias and nepotism, the arena of dictators if you will. I’ve never seen even one that was run with integrity or consistency. Humans even with the best of intentions don’t seem to be capable, as a whole, of objective reasoning. Realize that it is possible to report these situations without becoming apart of them and drowning you and your family in stress and drama.
We can only try to do our best, Michaeux. With the detractor groups, however, I don’t feel that enough effort is being made to keep things from getting out of hand…and that’s why a detractor thought it would be acceptable to directly harass family members of Axanar supporters. If Shawn O’Halloran is really serious about cracking down on such behavior, then clean up the toxic environment that makes it look like something the “cool kids” would do and/or approve of.
Don’t expect to get to far with that. These people put their own first. They aren’t motivated to self correct their peers. They are busy watching each others back not maintaining a moral standard.
Yeah, but it was at least worth a try. I might not get through to all 843 members of the Axamonitor group (if all of them are even real accounts), but maybe I can reach a few. And anyway, I had nothing better to do last night after Jayden went to sleep. Wendy was watching “Married At First Sight” and “Real Housewives”…so a’blogging I did go! 🙂
Axamonitor folks…
1: Go undercover to a convention and record Alec Peters on your cell phone. Really? I don’t remember that guys name but does he have a family, a wife? Would they not be embarrassed that their husband or father is spending his time acting like a child? Wasting his time like that? If he was my Dad, or my Uncle, I’d be so damn embarrassed.
2: Most of them are protected by a keyboard, they talk a big game but they would probably fold if they encountered someone from Axanar in real life. Or how they started talking about your wife…what would they do if they met her face to face? They would probably stumble over themselves and feel ashamed for acting like children.
3: Both sides are guilty of harassment. Axamonitor folks and a few ardent supporters of Axanar.
4: Back to your wife. You have a child, a wife, a family that loves you. I suspect most of the folks in that group don’t have anything near that and that’s why they spend their time obsessively following Peters every move. Folks who have a stable life at home don’t really act like that. Sounds like a lot of them are lonely middle-aged men.
5: They aren’t doing a public service by being the Alec Peters watch dog.
The person who followed Alec and Crysstal around the 50th anniversary Las Vegas convention was Gabe Koerner (same one from the screen cap at the top of this blog post). Gabe is divorced and has no children. I’m not sure he even likes kids, as he’s complained to me that he felt that my “crying little brat” ruined his opportunity to meet Cirroc Lofton seven years ago (long story).
As for family being related to trolling and cyber-bullying, I’m not sure that’s the magic formula. One of the most dedicated, prolific, and nasty detractors is Sandy Greenberg (who posted earlier on this page). He’s got a wife and kids…possibly even a cat or two. So I doubt he’s lonely. Shawn O’Halloran also has a wife and three beautiful children. I think the only significant source of frustration in Shawn’s life is that he chose the wrong New York baseball team to root for. 🙂 (Don’t worry, Shawn, I choose the wrong football team…you know, the ones dressed like a Hess truck.)
Anyway, the “doing a public service” is just an excuse to be nasty. It’s kind of like religious extremists. Underneath it all, they’re pretty much just angry thugs who want to hurt people, take out their frustrations and ire, and blow things up. Religion gives them the perfect excuse to do something they wanted to do anyway. Now they simply feel better about themselves when they do it. So the detractors simply use “saving the world from Alec Peters” as a convenient rationale to justify behavior that they know is wrong but feels so good because, deep down, they are just bullies.
“One of the most dedicated, prolific, and nasty detractors”? Awww, I didn’t think you cared.
The funny thing is if Peters was just a bit better at customer service and less of a toxic person and simply OFFERED me a refund instead banning me from all the Axanar groups without an explanation and forcibly refunding me back in 2015 (I think it was) I probably would have just taken the cash and walked away.
Ah, so you have made a carefully measured response that balances the affront. I get it. Just curious, though: how do you explain the second year of your continued trolling of all things Alec and Axanar, Sandy?
Sandy has a funny memory about some things, and he forgets that I was there to witness some of what he talks about……..
Would you like to share with the class?
A long time ago, in a Facebook post far, far away, Mr. Greenberg expressed his concerns regarding the project and the lawsuit. What ensued was a long and reasoned discussion in the comments section with himself, Alec, and a whole host of other members of the Axanar Fan Group. Eventually, we got to the point of diminishing returns, and Alec asked for no one else to post in the comments (this being, apparently, before admins could turn off commenting). Sandy then thanked everyone for their participation. Now, I happened to be actively reading the comments section when this all occurred.
What happened next is that some people either did not see, or ignored Alec’s request to not comment further on the post. Alec deleted those comments posted after his request. Sandy then chose to flip out, saying that Alec was deleting comments that were critical towards him. However, as I was reading the comments and saw what was deleted, I know that was not correct. Now, whether he was kicked out, or left on his own at that point, I do not know.
Why is Sandy still sour about a few bucks he donated in 2015…over 3 years ago? Seems like he is losing money investing all this time into Axanar. Guess his time must not be worth that much.
There was a fun episode of “The X-Files” a few weeks ago where a network of A.I. computers try to kill Mulder and Scully because Mulder didn’t leave a tip for the robotic sushi chefs in the restaurant they’d just eaten at. Sandy’s obsession is kinda like that. 🙂
Close, but not entirely accurate. If I remember correctly I made a post asking why a thread or comment had been deleted. There were a few replies from other group members before I went to bed (being on UK time of course).
The next morning I find that I had been removed from all of the Axanar groups and had my access to Ares Digital removed. I was confused as there was no message from anyone explaining why so I PM’d Terry since he was the main admin at the time. This was his reply:
“OK, think that I’m caught up not only on this, but PMs that swirl around here internally.
It seems that Alec’s post in the Donors Group was deleted by him and some donors were nuked for their behavior (his decision and it was done without discussing it… at least with me, anyways). Perhaps that was when you were nuked from the donors group? I couldn’t say, since, again, I didn’t do it.
But, with that said, I had a PM that shows me that he’s refunding your donation, so you’d have been removed anyways. Your Ares Digital account is now suspended, too.
Since I’m not processing any refunds — not my department — I can’t speak to when those might happen, or what form they might take, but I’m told that it’s in process.
Be well!”
Yep, Sandy, totally justifies your two years of constant trolling and harassment of Alec and all things Axanar (including me…who didn’t have anything to do with the above incident). You’re so totally vindicated now. 🙂
You did not ask, Sandy. You threw a fit. I was there, I saw it.
I was talking about the most recent convention Peters was at in Georgia. Someone on Axamonitor recorded the session on their cell, then Carlos wrote a blog post about it. Everyone congratulated the guy for going in incognito…so dumb.
Well, he wasn’t really incognito. He just used an assumed name. But Alec knew it was the same guy who’d posed as a volunteer in order to get the “secret” location of the new Axanar studio so Carlos could “scoop” everyone and publish the big reveal early.
So childish…and yet standard operating procedure, it seems.
I’d be ashamed if I was that man.
Yeah, but you’re JustADude. 🙂
Honestly, I don’t know why anyone on either side talks about or thinks about Axanar anymore. There are lots of failed kickstarters out there and Axanar is just another on the pile. What makes this failure so special? That the folks behind it have yet to admit they’re not going to complete it? That’s common. That the folks who don’t want it to happen can’t admit they won because they like the ongoing drama? Welcome to the internet.
This will be a fun comment to screen cap when Axanar comes out. 🙂
It has to do with the fact CBS went nuts because it looked awesome, actually had potential and wouldn’t have failed if CBS didnt throw a fit. That’s why.
Knowing now what I do, I actually think the whole Klingon War plot-line that was planned for Discovery played a big part in CBS’s decision to go after Axanar. It certainly wasn’t the Kharn Roast coffee! :-)https://fanfilmfactor.com/wp-admin/edit-comments.php?comment_status=moderated#comments-form
What makes you so sure, it’s a ‘failure’, as you put it. Seems to me, bloggers are STILL mentioning ‘Axanar’ !! Trekkies remember who/what ‘Axanar’ & ‘Alec Peters’ are about, it’s about FAN FILMS & STAR TREK ! At least Alec/Jonathan published their last name !
#IstandwithAxanar !!
#IstillstandBESIDEAlecPeters !!
& now … #IstandwithJonathan2 !!
(Apologies Jonathan, but, I HAD to reply. Reprimand me later, I shouldn’t have, but, I’ll be the 1st one to stand up for a friend of mine. Now, I’m going to go on my FB friends list to UNFRIEND a couple of arse-wipes. Only reason I kept them active, was to hear their crap, but, enough is enough & they’re taking up space ! And we know how big ‘space’really is !!) Plz keep blogging, Jonathan, I may not always respond/reply, but, I do read it & enjoy it lots !
Big Texas Howdy’s to Wendy & Jayden
#IstandwithJonathan2
Sounds like a sequel, don’t it? 🙂
No worries, I shall keep blogging. I’ve got a fun couple of interviews coming next week. Stay tuned! And “howdy” right back atcha, dude!
Only quality of wookie your wife has is the loyalty to stand by your side. That would be the take away I would use on them when comparing her to Chewie. Bullying will always be there. Good for you being the stronger person. Trust me, I got three kids and im teaching them to stand up for themselves and dealing with this stuff in school. Let em keep throwing the punches and when the final product comes out and we get to finally see the hard work of Axanar let that be the fist to shut em up.
Actually, when it comes to my wife, when we argue, the phrase “Let the Wookiee win” often proves a good philosophy to go with. Happy wife, happy life! 🙂
Don’t forget the over-the-top YouTube videos, Jonathan, although I found mine rather hilarious.
BTW what ever came out of the Nikki Snyder incident? Was the young lady able to get some justice?
I don’t know. Unlike certain people who may or may not be named Anthony Shuh, I gave that woman her privacy.
“Nikki Synder” was busted when the person posing as Nikki made a critical error (well, a second one. The first was creating someone who was supposedly an air personality at a Chicago TV station, which was easy to find was BS). “Nikki” posted a picture of “herself”…And neglected to remove the name of the person the pic was stolen from at the top of the picture. made finding the real person easy.
I’m reminded not so many years ago when we were so optimistic about the internet’s ability to bring people together. What we sadly found is that Gresham’s Law applies to the online universe where bad behavior tends to drive out good behavior.
I guess we’ve gotten to the point of having to have recourse to applicable cyberbullying laws https://cyberbullying.org/bullying-laws
Having been the victim of high school bullying, trolls are no different. But here is the thing that bullies have either missed or forgotten. A number of us are no longer that scared little kid. We will call you out, we will point out your bad behavior, and we will stand up to you.
As to the Axanar detractors/haters (call them what you will), your reputations have been sullied. The internet is forever. You have well surpassed the point of diminishing returns. You are turning people away. Time to move on. You are at the point where you can’t win.
Actually, the detractors are becoming mostly irrelevant. They’ve lost a few stragglers here and there, and they’ve gained basically no one. They’re kind of like folks who are still arguing about Obama’s birth certificate. No one really cares anymore except for them.
I know you want the more level-headed detractors to speak up about the cyber-bullying and get it to stop. Sadly, there’s a big obstacle to that: the fact that Koerner controls the page/group, as he created it, IIRC. He can ban anyone he doesn’t like, for any reason. Thus, any detractor that makes too much noise about this will suddenly find themselves out of the group, and the bad behavior will continue.
As I see it, there are two ways to stop the bullying:
1: Have one of the level-headed ones somehow take control of the group, which might not be possible.
2: Have some of them band together to get the group shut down, then create a new one with the level- heads in charge.
Nothing will change until the one on top gets thrown off.
If enough people re kicked out, the group dies from atrophy…or at least is diminished so much that it loses what little relevance it once had.
But frankly, I don’t put much faith in the detractors. They haven’t impressed me yet–why start now? 🙂
Cory – the original hater group, “CBS/Paramount v. Axanar” was started by Michael Hinman. AxaMonitor is the product of Carlos Pedraza.
While active among the haters, Gabe Koerner did not start either group.
Thanks for correcting the info, Colin.
I’m just a random Trekkie, with no dog in this fight – just a large bowl of popcorn 😉
I’ve seen hateful comments from both sides – detractors and fans, Alec Peters himself and others. I don’t think anyone comes out smelling of roses over the Axanar debacle.
There’s no excuse for grown men to behave so badly. All concerned should apologise to you.
“All concerned should apologise to you.”
Yeah, I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath for that outcome, James. 🙂
And yep, both sides have crossed lines. But from where I sit, the detractor side seems to be the greater of the two evils and is more likely to fit the classification of “they started it.” But yes, neither side gets a pass on misbehavior.
When the legal decision was handed down, they should have accepted the fact that this was the ONLY pound of flesh they were gonna get and moved.
Seriously folks, LIFE IS TOO SHORT.
That it is, Jason. That it is.
And thus the Great Birds vision of working together, for a better world. goes belly up….
Oh, it’s not THAT bad, Mickey. And hey, things weren’t exactly perfect back in the 1960s or 1980s either. We just didn’t have the Internet yet. 🙂
Yes but there was Hope!!
Sadly it’s been bashed about the head and neck with a Broken Bottle.
That’s Broken Bow, Mickey. 🙂
I live near Broken Bow and it’s nothing like the series.
Perhaps the Axanar civil war is over for the majority of the fan film buffs who found Axanar the proposed film, and certainly the excellent Prelude to same, interesting for whatever reason. FB says that Fan Film Forum has around 1360 members and Axamonitor around 850, in round numbers. From what I can see from my perch (I’m an Axamonitor member who enjoys other Trek fan films quite a bit), somewhere between a dozen and maybe 20 members of either page consistently comment on some post of interest. Occasionally some post will elicit more emojis, and of course any controversy will drown out the handful of us on either side who enjoy new films that some talented team is trying to bring into being (thanks to Jonathan and to Ms. Reader and her group for researching them). Obviously, the vast majority of either group’s members are either watching without engaging or have decamped to return to civilian pursuits. While I’m visiting here, I’ll have to say that in no manner do I consider it appropriate or mature to insult someone’s spouse, a professional who apparently has no involvement in our hobby, over the Axanar issue. I’m embarrassed and perplexed that this issue is at question among adults.
Well, I’m happy to hear you say all that, C.W. Yes, I know that our true numbers in these Facebook groups is usually FAR less than the subscriber totals suggest. But I do notice that, at least on Fan Film Forum, we’re a lot less prolific in mocking, taunting, and harassing people. Yes, things are a little heated at the moment on Fan Film Forum regarding an aspiring fan filmmaker name Jarvis, but to be honest, this is the first real major negative feedback-fest I’ve seen in our group in a very long time. In the Axamonitor group, negativity (usually crass and cruel) is an almost daily pursuit…and it very often crosses lines of decency and civility. Yes, that happens on occasion on Fan Film Forum, as well, but our exception seems to be their rule.
Sigh. The lament one hears on “our” side of the border (i.e., on Axamonitor) is that “our” people are blocked on “pro-Axanar” sites (I presume the main one is the original one set up for the proposed movie) and expelled from the sites because of the questions or comments that “our” people post there. “Our” people also have screen shots of intemperate remarks directed at them by “pro-Axanar” stalwarts. “Our” group considers itself the refuge for people thrown out of the “pro-Axanar” groups because of the heresy, so the charge is made, of asking questions about the financial management by Mr Peters of the Axanar film project. Thus little direct discussion between members of each group seems to happen without rhetorical nukes being set off. The adolescent pranks ( “bags-of” what? sent to whose home to insult them? by whom?) that each side accuses of the other are hard to explain among adults who seem otherwise well educated and/or possessed of considerable technical/computer skills. How on earth a pursuit that is supposed to be enjoyable devolved into all this is beyond me as an outsider to the process of making these films; I simply enjoy watching them and contribute a little money to one here and there. It is intriguing that a handful of people like Mr. Koener can cross borders between the two belligerents, but in general both sides seem to be isolated from each other personally while both sides express an enormous amount of frustration, hurt, and occasionally rage toward their opponents. It is perhaps both ironic and hopeful that I can visit here occasionally, be treated well and carry on civil conversation when what we are typing about is new fan films.
It’s kinda funny, C.W., but I used to be very opposed to Alec’s decision to boot detractors out of the Axanar fan group on Facebook. But two years later it doesn’t bug me as much. In fact, I’ve banned a few detractors from posting on Fan Film Factor, as well, as they simply kept violating my blog’s rules and ignoring warnings. Eventually, I just set these people’s comments on automatic delete because they’d lost the privilege to post here. As Mike Bawden told me recently, “It’s like you’re hosting a really nice dinner party, and some rowdy people come in, start insulting the host, fighting with the guests, and spitting on the food. Why in God’s name would you ever invite them to your party again?” Good point, Mike.
In the end, the detractors make the same old arguments, and the supporters make the same old responses. It’s been 28 months since the lawsuit was filed and 15 months since it settled. Why are the detractors still making their same arguments? Why do the supporters still have to respond and argue back? At this point, it’s not about anything other than just wanting to be proven right. Axanar is still in development. It either gets made or it doesn’t. Neither side will have much of an effect on that. So the arguing is pretty pointless. The detractors can say “I toldya so!” until the next two Axanar episodes are made. Then the supporters can say, “See? WE told YOU so!” In the meantime, though, it’s just two groups of children who can’t play nicely together.
So now I’m actually in favor of putting the kids in separate corners of the playground.
I have only turned to reading this post rather late, and that has given me the advantage of reading all the comments in one go. Interesting reading. After some intelligent comments early on, it gradually predominantly became a series of, “…he said – you said – I said…” responses, many interesting and informative to read. Sometimes informative of the events, at other times informative on the mind that generated the comment.
Most of what I might have said from my limited knowledge of the details of this debacle has now been said, for me it was more a case of read and learn. But I have one observation, prompted primarily, Jonathan, by your excellent blog:
In the past I have been foolish enough to allow myself to be drawn in to “discussions” with that subset of Christian fundamentalists who are belligerent fanatics (I think a valid descriptor). I’m a committed Christian, but neither fundamentalist nor belligerent (nor dogmatic except to the extent on insisting that being Christian doesn’t mean you stop employing your brain!) What I finally, and too slowly learned, was that the “fanatics” (no matter what the object of their fanaticism) do not read your responses, your arguments, your explanations. They pick out only the sentences they wish, then quote them either out of context or even “inverted” in their meaning, concatenating the material into the basis of a totally fallacious “counter-argument”. They “hear” only what they want to hear – they have no interest in attempting to discover what you actually said or wrote in the first place.
So to some degree, while it was probably cathartic for you to write the blog – and certainly thought-provoking for those who do wish to “hear” – to those few militant detractors you may have been hoping to reach, you were probably wasting your time – sadly. However, your did trigger some very interesting social philosophy in some of the comments.
(PS. I’m hoping I don’t get my mail box deluged with all the above comments.)
Yeah, it might have been a waste of time. I got two dollars and ninety-three cents worth of ad revenue over the last few days, but I remember when a bashing blog like this could have easily broken four bucks! 🙂
That is to say, I’m not in this for the money. But I do like to use my blog to speak out for justice and decency every so often. So if the detractors continue their cyber-bullying ways, this probably won’t be my last time shining the spotlight into this dark and hateful small corner of Trek fandom.
Not quite what I said Jonathan. Only a waste of time with respect of any hoped for impact it might have made on that subset of Axanar detractors who are behaving in this totally reprehensible way. To anyone and everyone else, be they Axanar detractors (the well-behaved ones) or not, someone does need to, “shine that light”. The majority of this cyber-bullying seems to be taking place on Facebook, and this is just one reason why I don’t use Facebook. Zuckerberg is currently in deep excrement over one major issue with Facebook, and although there is widespread awareness of it being a vehicle for bullying and other anti-social trends, there doesn’t appear to be any positive action to curb such misuse.
But of course, Zuckerberg can’t be held responsible for these flaws in the human psyche, and I can’t quite see how he might set up filters to block bullying and other abuse. Besides, there is the whole issue of progressively over-regulating society to protect itself from itself, the issue of progressively cocooning society by reducing personal liberty, the issue of overlooking the need to take responsibility for one’s own actions. So at the moment it appears that targeted responses, like this blog post, are among the major tools in this fight against one of the darker sides of human nature.
In itself, you were not wasting your time in writing and publishing this posting. From a more general perspective, voices like yours need to be heard much more often.
Cyber-bullying is tough problem to solve, to be sure. Nancy Reagan took on the drug epidemic and didn’t get too far with “just say no.” Now Melania Trump is trying to combat cyber-bullying. Of course, Nancy didn’t have to worry about Ronnie snorting coke. 😉
::raises index finger and lowers jaw about to make a momentary cameo::
Nah. I got 2 projects going on, 1 of which is a documentary yall are interested in. No time. See ya on the dark side of the moon.
If you’ve got two projects going on, Gabe, you might want to consider leaving your phone behind…if you know what I mean.
And I think you owe my kidneys an apology. (It’s my liver, dude, not my kidneys. My liver. Sheesh!)
A man goes to a store to buy some kidneys. He says to the shopkeeper, “I’d like a pound of kiddillies, please.” The shopkeeper says to him, “You mean kidneys, don’t you?” The man says, “I said kiddillies, diddle I?
I think that joke predates written language. 🙂
Never write that joke out again, or at least read it before you do.
I’ve never visited any of the anti-Axanar sites. Now, I know why. If I wanted that kind of hate and abuse, I’d just tell people I voted for Trump!