ALEC PETERS answers READER questions about the AXANAR FINANCIALS!

119 thoughts on “ALEC PETERS answers READER questions about the AXANAR FINANCIALS!”

1. very nicely done. glad to see Alec take the time to answer questions(with all he has on his plate). as to the questions from the “detractors”, I notice Jo’s questions are worded in such a way that they can be used(if answered) as part of the so far non existent “donor lawsuit” that gets bandied about in some circles.

   since Jo wants to know what people attached to Axanar were paid…..maybe we should know how much she gets paid(i kid…i don’t care). heck, i don’t even care what my own boss makes…..so long as my company records my hours correctly and pays me every two weeks.

   No answer of any length or scope will ever satisfy those who now hold a grudge against Alec, they have show that time and time again, it is better to let them have their say(provided they are respectful of your rules……we know they get close to that line all the time). at some point they will find someone or something else to focus their anger on(real or manufactured), and time will move on.

   1. “at some point they will find someone or something else to focus their anger on(real or manufactured), and time will move on.”

      Yeah, that’s what I thought when the lawsuit ended! 🙂

   2. Let’s just say I sign my checks on the front, not on the back.

      1. On the front or on the back, it is still “your pay”. My point is still valid, and one of the first rules you learn whether you are an employee or employer is “you don’t discuss people’s pay with those who do not need to know about it”.

         Therefore Jo, you do not need to know about it.

         1. Yep.

            1. Actually people used to discuss pay all the time until employers figured they could pay everyone less if no one knew what anyone else is making. They started pushing the false narrative that it is rude to discuss your salary with others and for some reason that idea stuck. All not discussing salary does is keep the potential that you are underpaid and don’t know it alive. It also hurts you in salary negotiations because you can’t go in and say “So and so makes 25% more than me for the same work, I want a raise to match his pay.”

            2. From Forbes Magazine:

               https://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2012/05/31/why-you-shouldnt-tell-anyone-what-you-make/#2af762483844

               In fact, you shouldn’t tell anyone what you make.

               Here’s why.
               
               TIP #1: Your coworkers will resent you.

               At one job, I told a coworker what my salary was. I regretted doing so the moment the number came out of my mouth and her response was silence. Clearly, I made more than she did, and that made her unhappy.

               What if you disclose your salary to a coworker who makes more than you? You’ll still make them feel uncomfortable.

               And once Pandora’s box is opened, there’s no putting that information back.
               
               TIP #2: Your boss has to deal with the fallout.

               Whether you’re allowed to disclose your salary to your coworkers or not, it’s your boss who may have to deal with the consequences of your loose lips.

               Telling others what you’re taking home may prompt them to request a pay increase.

               If it comes out where that information came from, you’re the one to blame for the financial rejiggering your boss has to undertake.

               TIP #3: It’s a dumb play.

               In theory, if we were all more transparent, the world would be a better place. Pay inequity would end, and everyone would be working for the same wages. But that’s not reality.

               Men understand this is a poker game.

               What kind of fool would show her hand?

            3. As a donor I feel I have a right to know how every penny was spent, after all if I trusted Alec with my money, the least he can do is be forthcoming with facts. Now I realize he is not an accountant, but either Axanar is a fan film in which case what’s the big deal about telling how much everyone was paid. Rob Burnett said on one group he was paid $5K and earned every cent of it, even through there is a good chance he used the Axanar Edit Bay to edit the three movies he got paid to edit last year? If he’d paid a reasonable amount of rent that would have helped with studio costs, the same if Propworx had paid rent for the space they took up. Sure it might not have been enough to pay the rest, but it might have helped.

               I did not donate to pay the rent, I donate to see a professional independent Star Trek film made. Never demanded a refund even for the $5.00 shipping for patches I’ll most likely never get. Oh and I never complained about Alec or Diana getting paid. I realized Dean and Dom did manual labor and they deserved to get paid, I’d just like to know how much everyone go paid.

               And before someone says you don’t have a need to know, yes I do have a right to know how my money was spent. The only reason employers discourage employees from discussing how much they make with each other is simply, it’s to keep people from complaining they work more and get paid less that someone else.

         2. Alec Peters often claims Axanar is operating as a non-profit. If that’s the case, public disclosure of salaries of the principles is required by law… so, is Axanar a non profit or not? I guess it depends on which narrative does the least damage to the production that give day….

            1. I think you’re confusing a non-profit with a tax-exempt non-profit, OJ.

            2. No, JL… I am not. If Axanar says we are operating as a “non-profit” and are in the process of applying for our 501c3, both those statements suggest a very specific thing. Basically, if the status has been applied for, Salary has to be disclosed.

            3. Well, that assumes any of the principles are making a salary. 🙂

2. If Alec really wanted to be transparent and had nothing to hide he would make public the 215 financial document he submitted to the court with his first deposition.

   What he released above is nothing more than a summary. There is no detail and no documentary evidence. It’s a whitewash.

3. Hi Jonathan.

   I didnt intend to purposely change anything round. In the 2015 financial report there was a line for the $38,000 for Alec’s salary that he himself defended at the time.

   There was no income line to offset this. I’m not asking you to speak for Alec but why didn’t he put those amounts on that report?

   If he put money in beforehand he only mentioned it later on.

   1. I think Alec answered that in one of the earlier questions. My own commentary, base on statements made by Alec and Mike Bawden elsewhere, is that that 2015 annual report was put together without consulting with an accountant and is therefore not reliable as an official accounting of Axanar income and expenses. But because the flawed annual report was so potentially damaging to Alec, the detractors hold it up as some kind of perfectly-crafted document without any inaccuracies. After all, if the 2015 Annual Report was in error, then their arguments break down pretty quickly.

      But the fact is that the 2015 report was indeed flawed and inaccurate, and the most recent financials are the ones that were prepared by an accountant and reviewed by industry professionals familiar with what materials and services should and do cost.

      1. He answered it in mine. It’s just an answer that some don’t wish to accept. They’d much rather look for malice than incompetence or an error.

         1. If its paying back money that he fronted then fair enough.

            I just wish he’d said it at the time because I don’t remember him saying that. Something about everyone being paid low salaries.

            I don’t tend to think there was malicious intent but it does contradict a lot of stuff that was said.

            1. I recall Alec saying he sold his sports car to help make I think Prelude, but that’s all I remember him ever saying on any Captain’s Log or Podcast that he donated from his own pocket. And if indeed the $38K was a reimbursement then it should never have been listed as a Salary. I also remember both Alec and Rob saying Diana was the only paid employee of Axanar, but then at a later time Rob started he was paid $5,000 for his work on Axanar in 2015. And while he may have paid some people on 1099s, that doesn’t mean those salaries should not have been listed on the transparent budget for 2015.

         2. Did you just call Alec incompetent Hubcap?

            1. I’m just using the wording of Hanlon’s Razor, not casting a general aspersion on his character. Notwithstanding that, incompetence is far better than malice, which is what you seem to prefer.

            2. Me personally? No. I’ve always believed he was incompetent rather than evil. Evil needs intelligence.

            3. Not in your case, Sandy.

               Oh, snap…did I type that out loud?

               Okay, I’m giving myself a warning!

            4. “Evil needs intelligence”?!?

               What a fascinating bit of false data that is!

            5. Evil is as evil does…

               …or something like that. 🙂

      2. Well that 2015 report was a big mistake then.

         Turning my question around why put money in at all if you are going to ultimately reimburse youself? Why not keep your owm funds seperate?

         Even if ins outweigh the outs, I can see why questions were raised.

         1. They were valid questions based on the flawed presentation in the annual report. It’s simply that subsequent explanations have been discounted, challenged, ignored, and ridiculed. The only reason for that seems to be that there’s more juicy red meat in the annual report, and the more realistic explanations of what really happened taint that meat.

            Look, I get it. The detractors want to string Alec up in the nearest tree. The report gives them an excuse. Take away the excuse, and they risk sacrificing a perfectly good hangin’.

            1. Ok Jonathan I’ll give you that, so why hasn’t the professional audit been released to the donors? I realize Alec is no accountant and doing financials can be a pain, I did my departments financials for years. So I know even with experience you can still make a slip or transpose numbers and make honest mistakes.

               But in all fairness to the donors, we did trust Alec, we made a leap of faith, the least he can do is make a leap of faith for us and give us access to the professionally done financials, not the one he released which told nothing. Granted not everyone would want to even see them. Some of might not even realize what they are looking at, but I assure you there are those like me who would know exactly what I was looking at and where they money went.

               If for no other reason it would silence his critics and put this to rest once and for all. It would seem to be that with this move to Atlanta and a chance for a fresh start that would be exactly what Alec would want no lingering doubts on anyone’s part.

      3. Sorry but that just doesn’t wash. Dozens and dozens of times over the year and a half after the first report came out Alec defended his 38k “salary” saying multiple times that he deserved it for working full time on Axanar and that it only worked out to minimum wage. He went on and on about this every time someone brought it up. If it truly was a reimbursement and a “mistake” why did he and his supporters defend his salary so hard? It’s only been the last 6 months of so that he’s rebranded it as a reimbursement.

         THAT is the reason why we want “to string him up from a tree” as you say below. Maybe if right from the start he said it was a mistake I might have believed him, but to defend it as salary for 18 months and then to say it’s now a reimbursement is simply dishonesty.

         1. Um, let’s cut back on the exaggeration. It hasn’t even been a year and a half since the report came out! And it’s been a long time since I’ve seen him defend that $38,000 as “salary”.

            As for the rest, I know you want malice Curly, but you’re going to have to settle for incompetence. It was stupid for Alec to characterize the money as a salary in the first place. It was stupider to continuing to defend it as such until someone (probably the accountant) said, “Hey Alec, are you giving yourself a w-4 or 1099 form? No? Then it’s not a salary, but a reimbursement!” It was stupid, stupid, stupid. It was not malicious nor nefarious.

            Finally, I think you’ve got it inverted: You don’t want to string him up because you think he’s done something bad, you want to think he’s done something bad BECAUSE you want to string him up.

            1. It was actually Mike Bawden who pointed out the fact that it couldn’t have been a salary because Alec never issued himself a tax form and owed himself for expenses anyway. That was in late 2015, I think…just before the lawsuit. The defending it as a “salary” mishegoss only went on for about 2-3 months, not a year and a half. It was never really a salary in a legal sense; it was reimbursement. So once Alec realized he didn’t have to justify it as a salary in the first place, he stopped doing so. Unfortunately, by then, the dogs were on the scent. And as you can see by Sandy’s comment, the tale’s grown taller on down the line. 🙂

            2. But, damn it, Jonathan, he said BOMB on a PLANE! 😉

            3. That’s rubbish Jon. He was defending it (as were his cronies) for a LOT longer than 2 to 3 months. I’ll get one of our archivists on the case.

            4. You have archivists???

               Man, I only have minions! (We got them last summer at McDonalds in a few dozen Happy Meals. Jayden LOVES that movie!)

            5. Not officially of course. A few people keep stashes of links and screenshots. One of them dug up this little gem from the lawsuit:

               “74. Mr. Peters used donor funds to pay himself a salary of approximately $65,000. He also used donor funds to pay actors and to rent out a studio, as well as to pay for tens of thousands of dollars of meals over the course of two years. He also used donor funds to pay for a phone for his then-girlfriend, Diana Kingsbury, and for his friend and collaborator Robert Meyer Burnett. For two years, the monthly cell phone bills for these three people were paid for by donor funds. Mr. Peters also used donor funds to pay for his gas on a weekly basis for two years, along with his then-girlfriend’s gas for that same time period, along with other incidental purchases bought at service stations. He also used donor funds to pay for servicing for his Lexus, for new tires for his Lexus, for car insurance, to pay his AAA membership, and to pay for virtually all of his car expenses in 2014 and 2015. Mr. Peters also used donor funds to travel around the country as a “producer” of Star Trek: Axanar, and to pay for his TSA pre-check, his car insurance and his health insurance.” ~ Declaration of David Grossman in Support of Motion for Summary Judgment

            6. Yeah, so it’s completely unsubstantiated by any objective source. The plaintiffs certainly weren’t ever objective; they wanted to portray Alec in as negative a light as possible. And all of these allegations are denied by Alec and have been explained as expenses paid from Alec’s funding (except for the majority of the rent, which donors knowingly contributed for him to do) and the actors’ salaries (which there was nothing wrong with in the pre-guideline days and is something that even Star Trek Continues regularly did).

               So while I’m sure you enjoy “digging this up” for some strange reason, it’s kind of like digging up the Catholic Church’s arguments against Galileo when they were trying to disprove his claim that the Earth was round. It’s you’re trying to prove that the Earth is flat, so ahead. But at this point, I think we all know better…well, all except the flat-earthers (who, apparently, are still out there and playing in the NBA…google it!). 🙂

            7. But Jon, the thing all of you fail to mention is this: All the claims in the Plaintiffs motion came from Alec’s deposition and initial 215 page financial report.

               Now sure, I’ll concede that the role of the Plaintiff is to paint the Defence in the worst possible light. Saying that, they are not able to outright lie and and make stuff up. These things came from somewhere.

               The problem is that because the case never went to trial we’ll never know what the “truth” is, unless Alec releases his real financials. We do know that the Judge ruled that Alec DID personally profit.

               I personally believe that this is the reason Alec finally decided to accept the settlement agreement, he didn’t want his true financials coming out in court.

         2. It’s also rubbish that he’s been arguing it for longer than it’s been an issue…..

4. Great article, as always. Thank you for finding the middle ground.

5. Regarding the reimbursement aspect…I think that should have been clearly stated as part of the KS and IGG campaigns that a portion of the funds were to go to the campaign leader to reimburse previous expenses.

   Most kickstarters ( i am not to into movie KS..maybe they are a different beast…I am more games and books)…all the funds go to the project. Most projects I have seen initial investment is considered a sunk cost…to be recouped with any funds left after the project is delivered…or by having a product(game,book) ready for sale on the market.

   1. That’s actually a hard statement to prove, Brian. How many other of those Kickstarter and Ingiegogo campaigns have released their financials AFTER the project has been completed? What makes you so certain that none of them have reimbursed anyone for expenses along the way?

6. “this is another bit of a double standard where Axanar is held to a higher level of accountability than anyone else. I’ve never seen any fan production report individual people’s salaries.”

   Axanar faces a double standard because they’ve done something unique. No other fan film collected as much money and didn’t produce it’s film.

   If I go to a restuarant, and pay for a $20 burger, if they bring it out after a few minutes, I don’t care if it was $2 of meat and a $1 bun, I got what I paid for.

   If they never come out with a burger and start telling me that they need to collect some more money for tomatos and onions, I’m going to start asking where my $20 went.

   All of those other fan films, like continues, we don’t ask where they money went or who was paid because they did what they said they would. THEY MADE THEIR FILMS.

   1. So where’s your ire about “Captain Pike” and “Equinox”? Just curious.

      1. Yeah I was wondering about Captain Pike too.

         1. I can’t help ya there, JC.

            1. I don’t think anyone can.

   2. The problem with what you’re saying Mario, is it ignores two facts:

      1) The lawsuit’s effect on the shooting schedule. No matter what side you come down on regarding the lawsuit, you can’t pretend that its existence didn’t have an effect on shooting the movie.

      2) You can’t really say that it “didn’t produce its film” as the hat hasn’t been thrown in on making the movie yet.

      1. “2) You can’t really say that it “didn’t produce its film” as the hat hasn’t been thrown in on making the movie yet.”

         I have consistently said that if Alec makes the movie, he’ll shut most of us up. Even with the lawsuit he’s had more time and more resources than almost another fan film out there, and he hasn’t gotten it done. And there is at least one more fundraising campaign standing between him and the finished movie. I’d love to see the finished product I just don’t have any confidence that Alec can get it done.

         PM me next year to rub my face in a completed film if you like. 🙂

         1. Save this post, Dave!

         2. “PM me next year to rub my face in a completed film if you like. ”

            Consider it a date!

      2. @hubcapdave
         2) it is true…we have yet to see what Alec can do. So we may yet see our Axanar in some form(we do know it will now be a mocumentary). However…Alex has stated above on this very blog page…it will not be made…even in its reduced form…without further funding. Of course…we know nothing about how much is needed at the moment…it could be $5,000…it could be $500,000.

         ALEC – Until we finish the scripts and have those scripts budgeted, we do not know what the cost will be. We are a lot more savvy than before, and so we will be able to shoot very efficiently. But still, the money will need to be raised.

         1. I know that. So what? I know some will think me a fool, but I am ready to contribute once Alec has the budget number.

            As for the range you suggest, it’s probably going to be on the lower 1/3 of that scale. If you want the highball side, assume the amount Alec had at the beginning of 2016 as the amount needed, as that was what he had to shoot the first 30 minutes of Axanar at the time of the lawsuit.

      3. Hubcap YOU forgot a few very simple facts:

         1) Axanar was origin ally due to be completed and released in late 2014. (Yes the director wanted to film in L.A. due to travel expenses)

         2) Alec got side tracked with “building” a studio which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in donor money.

         3) At the time the lawsuit came about there supposedly was a final locked script titled “Best Star Trek Movie Ever” when in fact the script was far from complete.

         4) Alec repeatedly claimed the sets were ready and filming was scheduled to begin filming in February 2016.

         5) If Axanar hasn’t been made by now it won’t be made, so yes “didn’t produce its film” is Quite correct.

         6) Alec has been attacking STC and NV for quite some time only because he knows he can not produce the same quality of work as either of those productions.

7. “the Captain Pike donors (like me) pretty much lost completely without so much as a single set built a or 3-minute “Vulcan scene” completed. ”

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGP1TdQN86Y

   I found this more interesting than the vulcan walk and talk

   1. I liked the Vulcan scene better, but both are well done. However, it’s been just as long since they raised their almost hundred thousand dollars, and there’s still no “Captain Pike” fan film. Why aren’t you up in arms about that? At least Axanar had the excuse of a year-long lawsuit and legal counsel telling them to suspend production. “Captain Pike” could have been made at any time in the last 18 months and wasn’t. So I just don’t understand the double-standard.

      1. I’ll try and explain my feelings about Captain Pike vs. Axanar. And while they might surprises us by dumping the complete film on you tube some time in the future, let’s assume that they have failed. Money ran out, can’t figure out an ending, lost interest whatever.

         It’s not an uncommon story, especially for fan films. big ideas, not enough experience. fan film failed. But they haven’t toured dozens of conventions bragging about how incredible they would be. They didn’t promise that they’d be the first professional independent fan film. They didn’t host podcast after podcast bragging about how great they would be. Axanar did. Axanar has this much attention upon it’s self because they’ve sought that attention.

         And when people look at Captain pike they see a failed film. When they look at Axanar, they see Industry Studios, The convention appearances, the donor shop, the merchandise. They see a ton of effort put into things besides the film.

         We also can’t ignore the personality issue, Alec can piss people off, Terry pissed people off, Propworx pissed people off. Their actions have earned them detractors. Captain Pike has just disappeared, they haven’t made blogs, and facebook groups, they faded away.

         Also, and here I’m really getting into what’s just my opinion, Captain Pike faded away when the guidelines hit. While yes there was an arms race between several films, Axanar was one of the biggest reasons for the guidelines.

         Axanar faces more scrutiny than Captain Pike because they have acted in a very very different manner, and while Captain Pike failed making a fan film, at least they failed making a fan film, and not a “calling card” to break into Hollywood, and not a “revolutionary studio”

         1. I didn’t write that as a huge, here’s the endless debate again, You asked where my ire for Captain pike was, and the above is more my feelings on the matter and why I feel differently about Axanar than Pike.

            1. Personally, I’m more disappointed in Pike. At least Alec put the effort into a level of communication with donors and fans all along the way…hence, the convention appearances, podcasts, blogs, social media posts, etc. Pike seemed to be mostly “phoning it in” after a while. By the time the guidelines hit, Pike had already been mostly MIA for months. And when you raise nearly a hundred thousand dollars, you owe it to your donors to have more than one update every few months.

         2. All fair points, but they argue for a lessened level of anger and resentment against “Captain Pike”…not complete silence and apathy.

            Just my opinion.

         3. So, notwithstanding the “endless arguments” aspect of what you said, this boils down to because Captain Pike didn’t communicate as much or as well as Axanar, they somehow get a pass. At least, that’s what I’m getting out of what you just said. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make much sense.

            Getting back into a bit of the “endless argument” stuff, if you go to Captain Pike’s website, you can tell they took a lot of cues from the design of Axanar’s website, including a “donor packages” section that is analogous to the “donor store” that you mention (and that has been derided endlessly) above. http://www.startrekcaptainpike.com/donate-2/

            1. THEY took ZERO cues from the Axanar website.

               1. The Donor Packages were Public for EVERYONE to see on both sites.

               2. The “Donor Store” required a donation on top of a donor’s initial donation in order to access the “Donor Store” which featured unlicensed merchandise.

   2. I didn’t

8. So according to the financials AP spent $659,000 on a studio that was never used to film one single frame of Axanar and he is leaving all of the improvements that the donors paid for to the landlord in exchange for breaking the lease; is that correct? How is this gross mismanagement justified? Does this seem like AP was a good steward of the donors money? I think this explains the failure of the current IGG campaign because people have lost confidence in AP.

   Also, the set construction and pre-production cost seems very high.

   1. Three things:

      1) He is getting a partial reimbursement for the improvements made to the property

      2) Stop pretending that the lawsuit didn’t happen!

      3) Since the format of Axanar has changed to the Prelude mockumentary format, most of it will now be shot on green screen, to which Alec has negotiated access to the studio for.

      OH, and can you provide a deatiled proposal of what those set construction and pre-production costs should have been?

      1. Well, since you asked:

         1.) Really? How much is this secret amount and why has it not been disclosed? Is it because this reimbursement is allowing AP out of the lease only? I don’t see the landlord giving a penny; he has no reason to so why would he? I may be wrong but I won’t believe it until I see proof; there has been to much blind belief in whatever AP says without proof for me to buy this assertion.

         2.) No one is pretending the lawsuit didn’t happen but the fact is that it is now being used as an excuse for not filming the movie. In January 2016, there was not enough money to film Axanar, the sets were not completed (and still are not) and according the sworn testimony of the Axanar production; the script wasn’t locked. In addition, the actors were not locked. So how in the world were they planning on starting filming in February 2016 regardless of the lawsuit?

         3.) Good for him; I hope that works out but if that is the case why all of this talk of moving the sets since he wont need them? It seems a waste of money to move unfinished sets across the country to a location where they won’t be needed. The cost of breaking them down, transporting them and setting them back up cannot be cost effective; especially since they won’t be used.

         Well, as a professional building contractor and as a production designer and art director, I do know what I am talking about regarding production cost. From what I have seen of the sets the numbers are absurd. In addition to the set cost; the pre-production cost is preposterous. This whole affair is a tragic travesty quite frankly.

         1. Ah,well, I will happily accept what someone on the internet told me about themselves……said every person who fell for a Nigerian 419 scam. If you really are thise things, you’ll have to show more than your word, Will

            1. I am the production designer and art director for Star Trek Continues which I have been with since before the first episode was filmed. I operate the website tosgraphics.com. I was responsible for upgrading the sets we got from Farragut and building the sets and for the staying within budget for those sets & props needed for the episodes including the engine room, Auxiliary Control, various alien sets, props, etc. I am intimately familiar with the cost of pre-production, production and post-production since I was a member of the Board of Directors for STC. We could have produced 5 complete episodes including all phases (production cost, travel lodging, post, music; everything for complete episodes) for what is listed on the balance sheet for pre-production for Axanar. In my experience the pre-production figure for Axanar is very high and unheard of for a fan-film. In addition, since STC is a true non-profit, the financial information is all public record so you can verify what I am saying.

               I have spoken with Alec several times and at some point was going to help with the displays and control panels for the Aries bridge but things fell apart before anything happened.

               Check those facts on the internet until your heart is content!

            2. In all fairness to Alec on this, most of STC’s sets were already built out by the most amazing Farragut Films construction team over the years from 2008-2012 before STC filmed its first episode there. Likewise, STC has used private funding from Canadian venture capitalist (and very tall redshirt) Steven Dengler. So this really isn’t an apples-t-apples comparison.

               BTW, incredible job on all the TOS graphics you do, Will! 🙂

         2. Not going to answer 1, cause I don’t know the landlord personally, so I can’t state to the fact that the person is actually feeling sorry for AP, because of the lawsuit, and how much money was lost due to it.

            2.) No, no one is ignoring the fact of the lawsuit, but what people are ignoring, is the fact that cause of the lawsuit, 2 things occured. One, time was LOST. There’s no way for AP to go back in time, and make the movie in that time frame that he lost cause of the lawsuit. Two, money was LOST. He doesn’t get back the money for the rent on the studio for the time of the lawsuit. He didn’t get to say to the landlord, “Hey, sorry, I can’t pay rent on the studio till I get out of the lawsuit.” It just does not work that way, anywhere, in all of SPACE and TIME. You can’t defer jack, just cause your in a lawsuit.

            3.) HubcapDave said, and as it was my understanding of it from AP’s email to the donors, is that the plan is to have a good percentage, say 70 to 80 percent of the stuff we’re going to see in the two 15 minute eps is going to be Green Screen / VFX. The last 20 to 30 percent, is going to be using the stages that were built, and the actors. So, yes, he will still need to move the sets to a new place. And, AP has also stated, that cause the design of the sets are unique enough, they can be used for OTHER Trek and Sci-Fi based shows with simple redressing.

            As you have no stock to put into what AP says, I have absolutely no stock to put into what you say, till you do as you keep asking AP to do, put your money where your mouth is, and provide documentation showing that you are what you say you are. I could say I’m a 15 year old school girl, and it not be true at all. So yes, trust is a two way street. But I go by what AP has already done with the Mockumentary, and will wait patiently for what he sets out to do for the 2 parter. He’s already proven he can do 21 minutes for the prelude, so adding another 9 minutes isn’t going to be that hard for him to do. Just getting everything re-organized, compressed, and setup for the shoot will be the fun part.

      2. Hey HubcapDave, did you get your Christmas list made out too, if your buying this crap then Santa and the Easter Bunny are dropping by your place every year! Come on, partial reimbursement for breaking a lease agreement, another green screen pop-up face documentary. I bet the used car dealers love see you walk in the door –

      3. How much is that partial reimbursement and what are those funds going to be used for? Or does Alec have to wait until he has totally moved out at the end of the month, and then see if he is getting his deposit back – and then at that time he will negotiate the reimbursement? Just wondering why he doesn’t have that figure now to release to the donors.

         1. Probably for the same reason you don’t get a deposit back on the day you move out of an apartment. The landlord will inspect to make sure that the move out didn’t damage anything, and then they will negotiate a figure.

            Also Alec has said any reimbursement will go towards funds needed to produce the two 15 minute parts of Axanar, whether that go towards rent, set finishing etc…..Doesn’t really matter what.

            As to the actual number, that is between Alec and the landlord, if he chooses to release the figure, then he will(publically or privately). If he chooses only to release it to donors, he will do that. If he chooses not to release it at all, and only says “we need to raise XXX, to finish filming” ….That is fine as well.

            In reality he doesn’t have to release any financials, because Axanar is not a publically traded company, and it really is no one’s business how he spend the money. If donors want to know, they can ask. If you are not now a donor, don’t plan on being a future donor, or have gotten a reimbursement on your donation……You don’t get a seat at the table so to speak.

         2. Jo, if you rent a house, or an apartment, do you get the deposit back before you are moved out? No, cause the landlord has to go in and verify that the place is decent, clean, and ready to be re-rented, before you can get your money back. It’s the same thing with AP’s landlord. He said he’d be willing to pay some back for the improvements, but he, and probably another contractor, will have to go through the building, see what was added, and changed, and come to an agreed upon estimate for the re-imbursement to give to AP for that. It’s the same as when you own a home, and you improve the home by adding a deck to it, or building a new garage for it. The local county/state assessor has to inspect the property, and compare it to similary styled houses, for improvements, and such, to figure out the value of the home, for proper taxation. So it doesn’t matter if you rent, or own, the process is still the same. Your not given hard numbers, till they do their thing. You wouldn’t go buy a card from someone that said you can get it for 500 bucks, without checking it out first would you?

9. Let’s see if we can separate the bullsh*t from the sushi !
   First let’s look at the script, it’s been over three months since the lawsuit concluded and yet not only hasn’t the script been revised (basically edited down) but my guess it hasn’t even begun yet .. So how can someone who doesn’t really have a job not have the time to make a few edits and revisions in three months time – better known as “not having your eye on the prize” or “not focused on the task at hand” ! Back to the parents yelling again, “Get to work, do something” ..
   Next let’s address the salary issue, of course it was just a mistake, chalk up another for Alec ! He somehow thought his devoted fan base would look the other way while he snagged a few thousand dollars from the kitty every month, and he was even confident enough, or delusional enough, to think the backers would praise him for doing it ! Since Alec himself prepared and summitted the Financial Report it’s almost comical to hear the back peddling now, a day late and a dollar short – typical twisting the facts to cover the truth ! Alec must have forgotten his boasting that “nobody works for free”, and “this salary is below minimum wage” – another major goof up, but that’s classic Alec Peters!
   Let’s move on to the likelihood of this Axanar Lite ever seeing the light of day, afterall that’s been the “end game” … oh sorry “bad taste” I forgot the studio was the initial “end game” objective, but with that boat sunk now, we really don’t need to address that disaster! So with crowdfunding now off the table because of the settlement, or at least publicly identified as Axanar crowdfunding, then where’s the well to tap those funds? We of course have a few shell sources to work around the guidelines, but those aren’t going to generate near the thousands of dollars which were available before ! Then you have the once faithful 15,000 backers who have sunk to below 350 now, unless those backers are willing to mortgage their homes, I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in them bailing this mess out – the current indiegogo failure gives you an idea where the loyal financial backers are now !
   Who knows, maybe one day the fans of the Original episode “Whom Gods Destroy” with Garth of Izar will see a pre-sequel or sequel to that show, but it’s certainly not coming from a guy named Alec Peters !

   1. I imagine when you separate out the BS, you’ll be staring in the mirror……

      1. Spot on, Dave.

10. Jonathan and/or Alec. I understand that other fan films don’t release their detailed financials, but obviously as Alec and others on both sides have stated Axanar isn’t just another fan film. If the 215 page report contains nothing prejudicial wouldn’t it be far better PR to release it? I am fairly neutral on Axanar as I do not know much about it beyond some articles, blog entries here and my friend’s introduction to the situation. From my POV it seems like releasing the report would shield from many of the more extreme claims of the critics. Not releasing suggests that there is something to hide. Also if Alec was released from the lease early why would the landlord reimburse for any of the improvements? Usually leases have a penalty if you leave early not a reward or reimbursement.

    1. I can’t speak for the landlord, but I do have experience with the detractors. Pretty much anything and everything I say about Axanar and Alec Peters is grist for their rumor mill. I like to joke that anything I say can and will be used against me by the detractors in a court of public opinion. In Alec’s case, multiply that by 1,000. And this is regardless of whether or not something is directly incriminating or not. Heck, someone once stalked Alec in Las Vegas and live-tweaked him for hours commenting about his choice of shirts!

       So if Alec can be criticized for his fashion choices, imagine what the detractors will be able to dig up in 2800 spreadsheet entries. “Wait! Alec spent HOW much on toilet paper??? How much can one guy wipe his ass??? Maybe he shouldn’t eat so much sushi!” Or maybe, “Hey, that’s a LOT of nails! And I thought those sets were supposed to be sturdy! Everyone knows that if you want to build something to last, you use screws, not nails. He is so incompetent, he can’t even build sets right!”

       Oh, the places they’ll go! And to be honest, why even bother opening the floodgates? Alec has enough to deal with already. Enduring a barrage of minutiae and micro-accusations from the detractor peanut gallery is an unnecessary distraction at best. Alec gains nothing by releasing anything more specific than he already has. So frankly, I don’t blame Alec for moving on to more important matters like packing up the sets and getting Axanar finished. (And just watch the detractors jump on that last sentence. It’ll be fun to see what they say back to me.) 🙂

       1. But from what I have seen of those people’s comments the floodgates are already open. They are questioning those things anyways. Releasing the financial report won’t make it worse from those people and could potentially shut some of them up. You say the financials aren’t as important as moving the sets or finishing Axanar, but I would disagree. What happened to the money is extremely important since it was donated by fans in good faith for a product that can no longer be produced in the form they donated for and for a studio that never produced a commercial let alone a film. Showing the people who donated that their money was spent in good faith would go along way towards reassuring them that in some form Axanar will be produced. The “financial report” that was released is honestly on the vague side. For example I know from multiple people that Alec set up at several cons and took in donations at these cons, yet these donations are not mentioned at all in the report. Maybe they were lumped in with something else, but then why would online supplemental donations receive their own category, but con donations be included in one of the other categories?

       2. I’d consider myself critical of the whole Axanar story, but not a hater or detractor. I find the suggestion that releasing the financials would add fuel to the fire not really convincing. And while I agree that some people have made there mind up so much that everything could and would be used as ammunition against Axanar or Alec Peters by these same people,this not nearly outweights the right of the people that donated in good faith and now want to know how their money was spent. And while I have a certain sympathy that releasing the detailed financials would not be the step that Alec wants to take, there are a few things to consider in context. Axanar once stated it would be “the most transparent” fan film production. I think Axanar should practice what they preached, even if and especially because things went south. Secondly, while the “detractors” (sorry, but i really don’t like this term, but let’s use it here for the sake of argument) might find little details to toss at Alec and Axanar, it would have been the great chance to clear up that the money was actually spent on what Alec says it was spent on. At least people would argue about how the money was actually spent instead of wondering how it maybe was spent.

11. True enough…it is not something I can prove about other kick starters what they actually do with their funds.

    But more than one I have been involved with (not media KS mind you) made it clear that they will happily keep any profits…but not till ALL rewards and perks have been delivered.

    And as long as the project delivered what it promised…no one that I have seen on other projects is concerned about how profitable the KS is to the creator.

    Now…this project is being held to a different standard because so far it has failed to deliver what folks have paid for. I am not arguing with reasons (cough…lawsuit…cough). But expect the scrutiny…and it will not unfortunately stop until what Axanar is still allowed to be delivered is delivered.

    And this is not the only project that has failed…I follow another large game project that also has failed to deliver (going on 4 years now). And many of the same questions are asked…there is the angry crowd that will always be angry until delivery is made.

    But…back to my starting point. It sounds like Alec and possibly some investors paid $x in seed money on the project. Alec should have either:
    a) been clear in the campaigns that this money would be reimbursed to him off the top.

    b) delivered on the axanar project, keeping it within budget and kept the proceeds.

    Eitherway…it sounds like we are back to the middle of 2015. Alec looking at the script…to do budgets…to get funding (somehow) to be able to deliver on the main axanar campaigns.

12. There is this about blog postings in web sites such as this – many people have an overwhelming thirst for reruns. I would not be at all surprised to find that some frequent posters have made basically the same comment a dozen or more times here and who knows how many times elsewhere.

    1. Now where have I read that before? 😉

    2. Reruns indeed Jerry.

       How many more KS and Indiegogo and GoFundMe will we see before we finally see Axanar. 🙂

       1. Well, none for Axanar itself….

13. From the Q&A:
    ——————————————————————-
    HubcapDave

    The one question I do have is regarding what was labeled as a $38,000 salary in the Dec. ’15 report. Is that money accounted for here?

    ALEC – The December 15th ANNUAL REPORT from 2015 mis-identified checks written to Alec Peters (me) as “salary” rather than as “reimbursement” or “re-payment” for expenses I fronted on behalf of Axanar Productions. In the financials we made public, you’ll notice that the expenses incurred (through 2016) by Axanar Productions far exceeded the money raised through crowdfunding and other fan-related sources like direct contributions and sales revenue from our donor store. That gap – the deficit between income and expenses – was funded primarily through personal investments made by me and by loans made by other individuals who have prohibited us from identifying them by name.
    ——————————————————————-
    ^^^
    Sorry, but if the above were actually the case, why didn’t Mr. peters just say so instead of stauchly defending the fact that he was paid a salary here (The link below is to a post AlecPeters made on the Axanar Kickstarter comments page:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/194429923/star-trek-axanar/comments?cursor=14630040#comment-14630039

    ————————————————————-
    Axanar Productions 3-time creator on October 10

    And David, just because a project took 7 years does not mean the person worked full time. When a person works full time, it is unreasonable to expect that they work for free.

    And since Star Trek New Voyages, Star Trek Continues and Star Trek Renegades all paid people, please don’t tell me that a fan film means you don’t pay people.
    ————————————————————-
    Something is Alec’s answer to Hubcap Dave just doesn’t pass the smell test. You would think Alec would have just said – “Hey we made a mistake” back then.

    1. Does it really matter when he said it? Do you know that point when he realized that it was a mistake?

14. I don’t mean to write this in a confrontational tone, but I can understand how it could come off that way. But really, this comes from the pure amount of incredulity that this situation has gotten as deep as it has. I mean, at the end of the day, this is ridiculous.

    Even before the “detractors” became more vocal, at first there were questions that were directed towards Alec. These questions and the questioners themselves were silenced. I appreciate the fact that sometimes it’s difficult to take criticism. And often, you don’t want to answer the hard questions. I totally get that. But there are a lot of hard truths in this situation:

    We all know Star Trek fans can be a difficult bunch. Just look at all the criticism leveled towards Discovery. And we barely know anything about the show! But according to some, it will suck. But, we’ve done that for decades. It’s not going to change. My point being: Alec has chosen to become a public figure within a difficult fandom. We are a questioning bunch. He should have known what he was getting into when he decided to crowdfund Axanar as opposed to self-funding, which may I remind everyone, was the original plan.

    I admit I am probably deeply into the “detractor” bunch, and I’ve probably said some things I shouldn’t have in this situation. For that I do apologize. At the same time, I think it’s unfair to lump us all in the same group. Personally, I don’t want to see the guy ruined. Also, my opinion on that has certainly changed since December 2015 when this whole thing started. Now, I’m tired of this. I just want the full truth out there for everyone to see. I also don’t want to go digging through every blog entry, article, podcast or video produced regarding Axanar to find it. There’s a term in legal discovery. It’s called “unduly burdensome.” That’s exactly what that would be. This fandom civil war has gone on far enough, and it’s all because people just started asking questions.

    And frankly if the full financials really will exonerate him, then why won’t he release them? Alec keeps claiming that the “detractors” are lying and manipulating the information to look him bad, but he and his supporters keep exacerbating the issue by engaging it. You (or Alec, I don’t know) suggest that we’ll find some little nugget to twist. Maybe. But if he wants Axanar to be the most transparent fan film, then he needs to be prepared for some questioning. That is part of the game. The point that I don’t think is realized is that while some may question what they see, others may be satisfied in their line of questioning. THAT is the bigger take away here. If I were in Alec’s shoes, and I thought the full financials would exonerate me, I’d put my big boy pants on and release them for the world to see. But I’d be prepared to answer questions politely and honestly. Because maybe I’d turn some of these people back into donors. Remember, many in this group, started out supporting Axanar.

    But let’s assume the financials won’t get released. That’s ultimately his decision. Still, I’m going to give Alec Peters the benefit of the doubt here. Alec, privately raise your money and produce your fan film. Let the work speak for itself. You’re going to either surprise the “detractors” or disappoint your supporters. I’m willing to give you that chance. Mainly because I’m tired of all of this.

    Alec says that Prelude wouldn’t be what it was despite Christian. Prove it.
    Alec says that Axanar (in whatever form) is going to be the best fan film out there. Prove it.
    That can only be done one way.

    You want to be exonerated? You want the haters to shut up? Then, Mr. Peters, you need to (within the guidelines and the bounds of whatever settlement deal you have with CBS and Paramount, of course) produce the best fan film you can. I hope, for your supporters’ sake, you are up to the challenge.

    1. There is no way in Hell that Alec would ever release the original financials of Axanar, even if they exist, there’s nothing positive for him that could occur by doing it. It would or could possibly create legality issues which could be used against him, there’s a major difference between being financially incompetent and actual theft by deception, and these reports would or could be evidence to that !

15. Wow, step away for a while and come back to “Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead” vitriol. People seem to have forgotten Axanar was on track, had been on track, to make the movie they promised until a little bump in the rod, called a “lawsuit” was dropped on their heads, right before filming was to begin. Had that not happened (and if anyone wants to start the “they were stealing their IP” stuff, look at the timing, which would have been a year earlier had that been a REAL reason), Axanar would have been done. Instead, they burned over a year of time doing nothing, and playing legal ponzi games with lawyers. All the complaining about Alec needs to have some tempering, and consideration that had CBS WORKED IT OUT, none of this vitriol would be necessary. But then, that would mean Alec would have made a good fan film, and it would have made CBS not look good. Bottom line folks, CBS is as much, or more, a villain in this situation. Maybe Alec made some mistakes, some errors, and misjudged things, or called the lightning down from heavan with hsi statements of how good it would have been, but he was trying to deliver to the fans what they want. If the real “owners” worked half as hard to deliver that same quality and adherence to Trek as it is, and not as they want (i.e. listen to the fans), maybe there would be less angst. I have supported Axanar, and will continue, because I believe they understand what I see in Trek, if you don’t agree, then don’t support. Period.

    1. They had a year to make something before the suit dropped…a year. And nothing.

       1. They could not do anything as long as the lawsuit was over their heads. They were at all stop. That is not a valid statement to make, it is not based on any reasonable expectation. My belief is the lawsuit had one purpose, burn through the money on rent and what work they could do (green screen and sets) so they would be in the exact position they are in today.

       2. Actually, they had 18 months BEFORE the lawsuit, in which time they made one two minute walk and talk in the driveway… in 18 months, with over 1.4 million dollars…

    2. Oh, baloney.
       You should share what you’re smoking.
       The JUDGE said that peters personally profited off of the Trek IP.

       The JUDGE said that.

       So, let me guess… the judge, the Paramount CBS lawyers, Alec’s own financials that he submitted (the 215 page report), Christian, Tony Todd and everyone else is lying… but Alec is telling the truth.
       They have perjured themselves in court, right?

       Of course, they back up their “lies” (which makes them even bigger liars) with evidence… and Alec backs up his truths with “you have my word”, and ALTERNATIVE narratives, which is much better than facts.

       Seriously… you Alec lovers keep defending this con man… why?
       You ask us why we won’t shut up?

       Because the con continues. When it stops, we’ll shut up.

       But what is in it for you? If you love Trek, and Trek fan films…
       Why do you defend the man who caused the tough guidelines to be created?
       The man who threw every other fan film under the bus, and continues to do so?
       The man who HASN’T created a fan film, just created more promises, and more fundraisers, without content?
       The man who continually disses the OWNERS of the Trek you love so much (because without Paramount CBS you have no trek)?
       The man who attacks the folks that own Trek, and have LOVINGLY allowed the fans to make fan films for YEARS before he tried to make a profession out of it?
       the man who has lied and changed the narrative on his fundraisers, over and over, even going so far as to use the names of people who did not want to be part of the project?
       The man who asked a noted Trek author to violate his contract and write a Trek novel for him under a pen name, so he could sell it?
       The man who used donor funds to travel all over the country with his girlfriend and play producer, instead of using that money to make a film?
       The man who used the studio you paid for with donor money, to house his other business for FREE… a business you did NOT donate money for?
       A man who tried to sell his Star Trek film to Netflix… despite the fact that he did not own the rights to it?
       The man who has already bankrupted one venture… the venture he used to create a fraudulent shipping service for his prop auctions, and claimed it was an independent company, allowing him to profit even more off the auction winners?

       What exactly is it about this guy you find so endearing?
       Is it because his favorite Trek character of all time, was a sociopathic egomaniac?

       What has he done for you, except take your money, and give you nothing in return?

       STOP saying “but the lawsuit”… there was nothing bfor the lawsuit… no locked script, no actors hired, no sets completed, no final budget…
       All you had BEFORE the lawsuit was more promises from him that he’d have to keep asking you for even more money.
       He said before the lawsuit, that they didn’t have enough… and even if the lawsuit did not happen… the lease would have continued… so if during the lawsuit, the only cost was the building (as they stopped everything else, right??!?) how would that be any different, as he still would not have had enough to make a film, and pay the rent… the law firm worked for free… so hat wasn’t a cost… so the money kept flowing to the building… and that would have not changed.

       What would have changed?
       If there was no lawsuit, he’d have kept fundraising, that’s what…. and promising the moon, and delivering dogshit.

       so I ask again… why are you supporting him so strongly?
       he’s given you nothing but empty promises, and disses that which you claim you love so much.

       Open your eyes.
       Fool me once, shame on you.
       Fool me twice, shame on me.

       You should be ashamed.
       You’ve been conned.

       1. Warning issued about profanity, Bill. Next time you use a swear word, your full comment will be trashed.

       2. Hmmm..”The JUDGE said that peters personally profited off of the Trek IP.

          The JUDGE said that.”
          I do not know that the Judge said that, but if he did, so what? I have seen judges grant parole to convicted violent criminals in total rejection of the law. That means “0”. A judge said something is just a judge saying something. If he had said “Axanar is not impinging on anything” and they still settled, they would still be where they are.

          “So, let me guess… the judge, the Paramount CBS lawyers, Alec’s own financials that he submitted (the 215 page report), Christian, Tony Todd and everyone else is lying… but Alec is telling the truth.
          They have perjured themselves in court, right?”

          I am unaware a trial was held, I am also unaware that any privileged testimony was released by the court. Any thing else has the value of any government statement. Again “0”.

          “Seriously… you Alec lovers keep defending this con man… why?
          You ask us why we won’t shut up?”

          I defend him because he has consistently shown me a vision of the Trek I believe in, the way I want to see it. He provides what the other fan films and CBS/Paramount do not. I don’t ask the question you pose, because people who have an axe to grind, will not. However, the same back to you: Why do you persist in making these statements? Why do you chase the man? Did you pledge and lose money? Did you not get your perk? I believe in his vision, and all the efforts they made in good faith. I see no evidence of anything other than being abused by a legal system that allows someone to pick and chose how they abuse it. In a real honorable situation, CBS would have either filed their lawsuit before or during their first fundraiser, or after Prelude, or during the second fundraiser. Not when they are just getting ready for production after a year of preparation. Not only does it show a lack of honor, but a devious intent to place them in a postition of maximum damage, drain the funds and cause them to not produce what was pledged for. I do not blame Alec or Axanar for that, I blame CBS. However, I do not have to consistently say CBS is an abuser of customers, of Trek, treat it purely as a piece of meat for money. That is self evident to me.

          “What has he done for you, except take your money, and give you nothing in return?”

          I value Prelude to Axanar as right up there next to ST2. Good enough for me. In fact, here’s a little secret I will share just with you: I am a “Greedy Bastard”. (Jonathan, that is not bad language, it is a title).

          “STOP saying “but the lawsuit”… there was nothing bfor the lawsuit… no locked script, no actors hired, no sets completed, no final budget…
          All you had BEFORE the lawsuit was more promises from him that he’d have to keep asking you for even more money.
          He said before the lawsuit, that they didn’t have enough… and even if the lawsuit did not happen… the lease would have continued… so if during the lawsuit, the only cost was the building (as they stopped everything else, right??!?) how would that be any different, as he still would not have had enough to make a film, and pay the rent… the law firm worked for free… so hat wasn’t a cost… so the money kept flowing to the building… and that would have not changed.”

          Non sequitur. There was a lawsuit, it was intended to drain the resources donors gave, and it did just that. CBS did it on purpose. They could have folded Axanar into their offical programming, and had something really good to put on their streaming service. Axanar proved you can make a professional looking fan film without huge budgets. That alone pissed of CBS, who, if they ever had their books opened, would probably look a lot sadder than anything Alec had. Go watch the presentation at Comic Con, Richard Hatch has a very clear vision of what is wrong with Hollywood today, and Discovery is just more proof of it. Talk about spending money with nothing to show? Shareholders should be asking questions of CBS….

          “What would have changed?
          If there was no lawsuit, he’d have kept fundraising, that’s what…. and promising the moon, and delivering dogpoo.”

          Bad language, and a bad statement. They were always upfront in what they were spending on, and were on track to produce the film, that is, until CBS jumped in. The moon was ok, they had Prelude as proof of their ability to deliver.

          “You should be ashamed.
          You’ve been conned.”

          Hmmmm. Ashamed? Not sure why, I freely gave my money to support their proposal. I saw an opportunity to see Trek the way Trek should be. No one put a gun to my head, I freely donated as a free person. The only people who have conned me is CBS, in waiting in the bushes until the worst possible moment to drop the lawsuit, and never negotiate or do ONE THING to support the fans. Therefore, I offer them the same thing in return, I do not watch their movies, TV or DVD’s, beyond what I had bought before their lawsuit. That is my right as a free person. If you do not like it, stop trying to impose your view on me or anyone else. If you lost money as a donor, say so. If you didn’t, then you have no place making any statement.

16. “Its always the same with the detractors..”

    That’s the thing, very little-to-nothing is always the same with each person within any group one chooses to label.

    But labeling is so easy because it eliminates my need to do considered thinking. When I label a person or a group of persons I give myself permission to block out all information that does not support my own conclusion or belief or opinion.

    Do I find my mind so limited that I would be unable to listen to and respect an opposite conclusion/belief/opinion while still remaining secure in my own? And conversely, do I find my own conclusion/belief/opinion so frailly supportable that I need to resort to attacking the character of and silencing those persons who hold an opposite conclusion/belief/opinion from questioning mine?

    “No answer of any length or scope will ever satisfy those who now hold a grudge.”

    I would then be interested in learning from they themselves how those persons came to hold that grudge. Where did it begin, what were the circumstances? I would would want to understand what it looked like from their perception of the circumstances. Indeed all humans are guilty of being human. Given the right circumstances we all think with our emotions.

    “they have shown that time and time again, it is better to let them have their say

    True enough. POV information presented time and time again is never a danger to a sound & factually supported opposite POV. Indeed, a presented POV employing disdain, indignation, character deconstruction, mockery, and barbs to make its point …..rather serves more to highlight the ‘person’ trying to make the point than any information they may think they are conveying. Therefore no response to it is even needed. The person and the comment speaks for itself.

    “(provided they are respectful of your rules”……we know they get close to that line all the time).”

    I do know this. I do also observe this is being done equally as stridently among both the ‘They’ and the ‘Us’ on this issue… who both keep getting close to that line often enough that it keeps derailing reasoned commenting being expressed into another round of barbs, jabs, anger, frustrated responses employing direct and/or not all that thinly disguised character and personal attacks.

    I need not point out where someone else is wrong in their reasoning. I need not silence them. I need only to continue to think. To continue presenting my own reasoning that leads me to my own conclusion/belief/opinion. I need to ‘always’ continue to listen to those who are looking at the same data as I and interpreting it in such a diametrically opposite way than I.

    1. I appreciate your postion and I would agree in your view, if it was not for some who have taken this thing as a crusade, almost like politics. It is such a bad way of thinking, to just argue over and over and try to make facts fit their crime. You are correct in you observation about silencing them, I just have to ask why they are so aggrieved as to sound almost desperate to see the guy in chains flogged in the street. I have to wonder what their motive is…

17. “I have supported Axanar, and will continue, because I believe they understand what I see in Trek”

    Hello, Mr. Heite,
    That is wonderfully stated. Full appreciation and respect from me to you on your perspective. “I believe they understand what I see in Trek”

    1. Thank you, sir. I appreciate your comment.

18. Forbes is run by a businessman for businessmen. They are going to push the narrative that supports the owners of businesses. It is not your fault that you make more than your coworker and there is nothing wrong with your employer having to pay out more money to rectify that situation. Your coworker shouldn’t be mad at you or resent you, she should instead ask for the raise she deserves for equal work. You will support almost any position I see as long as it supports your side. I have seen that from both sides in this argument, but at least the critic side generally attempts to back up their statements with the facts at their disposal.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/when-the-boss-says-dont-tell-your-coworkers-how-much-you-get-paid/374467/
    Maybe you should peruse this article. There are far more valid reasons to discuss pay then there are not too.

    1. Well, I suppose if we’re just trading opinion pieces, then here’s one from Monster.com that I really like:

       https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/dangers-discussing-pay-coworkers

       And if you don’t feel like clicking, then here’s the text…

       Surprising Dangers of Talking Pay at Work

       By Jen Hubley Luckwaldt, PayScale.com

       We all know our employers would prefer that we not discuss our salaries with coworkers. But should we do it anyway? And if we choose to discuss pay, is there any way for our companies to stop us?

       The answer on both counts is no, according to Stacey Carroll, compensation expert for online salary database PayScale.com.

       First and foremost, it’s important to know that employers cannot stop you from discussing your pay if you choose to do so.

       “Employers who try to prohibit employees from talking about pay really set themselves up for potential exposure to violating the National Labor Relations Act,” Carroll says. This legislation dates back to the 1930s and gives employees the right to discuss their work conditions, even if they don’t belong to a union.

       Still, talking salary might be a bad idea — for you, not your company. Here are four ways talking about your pay can come back to haunt you.

       1. It’s Demoralizing for You and Your Colleagues

       “It can be very demotivating if you’re very concerned about everyone else,” Carroll says. “The best piece of advice is to focus on yourself and your own career path and growth, instead of trying to compete with everybody else.”

       Carroll advises workers to concentrate on what they can do to have a positive impact on their pay, not about what a coworker is making.

       2. You’ll Draw Conclusions Based on Incomplete Information

       It’s nearly impossible to make one-to-one comparisons between employees. Everyone’s circumstances are different.

       “If you’re talking about pay with people that you work with at your same company, those individuals may be compensated differently based on the job they have or their previous experience or their education or maybe some specific certification,” Carroll says.

       Outside of your workplace, it gets even more complicated, because organizations have different budgets and philosophies about pay. Salaries also vary depending on the industry and the size of the company.

       3. Your Friends May Feel Forced to Lie to You

       When it comes to pay, it’s hard to know whom to trust.

       “The problem with talking about pay with other individuals is that it may or may not be reliable information,” Carroll says.

       For instance, a coworker might lie about his salary to make himself look more successful or as part of a power play, she says. Even if your office buddy is 100 percent truthful, you’ll filter the information through the lens of your relationship, which won’t help you make good decisions about your position.

       4. The Information May Hurt Your Chances of Getting a Raise

       Managers are seldom persuaded by an employee comparing himself to his coworkers, Carroll says. Instead of talking about how much your neighbor makes, arm yourself with facts, Carroll advises.

       Salary databases like PayScale.com and other third-party sources can provide more reliable information than water-cooler gossip, and they take into account variables — such as education, experience and skills — that can be missing from anecdotal information.

       Carroll encourages employees who are unclear about how pay decisions are made at their companies to talk to their managers or to HR about the pay structure. She suggests asking questions such as:

       Do we have a salary range for this position?
       What is my maximum earning potential in this job?
       How do people move through the salary range?
       Is movement based on longevity or performance?
       Are there certain skills or certifications I can earn that would help me earn more money?

       The goal of the conversation is two-fold: to gather information about the company’s compensation plan and to demonstrate your fitness for a promotion and/or raise.

       “You never know,” says Carroll. “It may turn out that based on all the criteria that the company has set out, that person truly is underpaid, and that might be a positive outcome for that employee.”

19. https://hbr.org/ideacast/2016/03/your-coworkers-should-know-your-salary.html
    I can do this all day. I will add that the ideas you are supporting are why women make less then men for the same work in many situations.

    1. I’ll stop with the tit-for-tat (someone has to), and just mention that my wife is an employment litigation attorney here in Los Angeles, and I’m well aware of the arguments both for and against sharing one’s salary with one’s co-workers. I simply wanted to point out that there isn’t simply one way of looking at the question of whether or not it’s a good idea to do so. It’s a complicated topic with many good and valid arguments on both sides of the opinion fence. Personally, I have no problem sharing my salary with all of you: it’s zero (although I’ve now made a couple of hundred dollars in Google Ad revenue since last November…thank you all so much for that). But I wouldn’t dare dream of disclosing someone else’s salary…and thus do I respect Alec Peters’ decision not to publish the individual salaries of the people who worked at Axanar productions.

       1. For someone who is married to an employment litigation attorney while not working yourself, you either used or supported some rather sexist phrasing when sharing/discussing the Forbes article. You might want to think about that.

          1. What did I say exactly? I prefer to confront accusations directly, and that means specifics and not ambiguities. I hope you’ll understand my position on that. Thanks.

             1. In theory, if we were all more transparent, the world would be a better place. Pay inequity would end, and everyone would be working for the same wages. But that’s not reality.

                Men understand this is a poker game.

                What kind of fool would show her hand?

                Those are the last few lines of either the Forbes article or your extrapolation of it. Interesting that it is men that understand the game and the fool that shows the hand is a her.

             2. Did you notice the name of the author of the article, Roger?

                Susannah Breslin

                I don’t think it’s sexist for a man to re-publish and attribute (with a hyperlink to the original article) the words of a woman author he considers to be wise and worth sharing with others.

                Oh, and here’s that link again:

                https://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2012/05/31/why-you-shouldnt-tell-anyone-what-you-make/#62debd783844

                Thank you for playing. (Jon drops mic, walks off stage left.)

       2. He can black out names and simply list positions if he is truly worried about that, but if Axanar is truly aiming to become a 501(c) then it will become public information anyway so he isn’t violating anyone’s privacy by disclosing. Also by disclosing the full report he can fully put to bed the issue of whether he was paid a salary or not. I would also like to point out that the simple act of not issuing himself tax forms does not mean any money he may have received was not a salary. Just sayin’.

20. I’m referring to the entire body of each comment I speak to here but because of space I won’t quote each one in its entirety. I have placed the url directly linking to each comment. I consider each one well stated and pretty much in line with my own perspective.

    ‘Roger’ – https://fanfilmfactor.com/2017/04/20/alec-peters-answers-reader-questions-about-the-axanar-financials/#comment-7655
    “But from what I have seen of those people’s comments the floodgates are……”

    Yes. I agree.

    ‘Christoph Zapletal’ – https://fanfilmfactor.com/2017/04/20/alec-peters-answers-reader-questions-about-the-axanar-financials/#comment-7672
    “I’d consider myself critical of the whole Axanar story, but not a…..”

    A couple of your points I hadn’t taken notice of before. The others I have, and agree with.

    ‘Brian II’ – https://fanfilmfactor.com/2017/04/20/alec-peters-answers-reader-questions-about-the-axanar-financials/#comment-7638
    “But expect the scrutiny…and it will not unfortunately stop until what Axanar is still allowed to be delivered is delivered.”

    I agree that delivering the finished product will probably go a long way in reducing the numbers of people closely scrutinizing. Though I will add that to my own thinking that there will still be some who will continue. Not out of malice, for my own part at least, or a nefarious desire to see anyone fail, but instead of what I believe is a demonstrated mishandling of other people’s money and questionable business practices that began long before this production, and which I believe is continuing to be demonstrated.

    “Eitherway…it sounds like we are back to the middle of 2015. …… looking at the script…to do budgets…to get funding (somehow) to be able to deliver on the main axanar campaigns.”

    1. TYGR, indeed they are back to square one, minus all the money spent on a year of rent, and improvements made to keep moving towrads production. Now, that is gone, and they will have to go back to the well, as well as listen to the continual diatribes from people who do not have any connection to the situation. I believe they think they can exact their pound of flesh by making sure nothing gets made, so they can say “told you”.

21. A woman can be sexist even towards other women. The phrasing is inherently sexist whether written by a man or a woman. Quoting a woman that agrees with you doesn’t protect one from claims of being sexist. I am not saying you personally are sexist, but that phrasing certainly is.

    1. I think you’re misreading the tone and meaning of the comment, Roger.

       The author is acknowledging that compensation in the workplace is a man’s game and unfair to women on a basic level. I certainly agree with that! But she’s saying that men have this all figured out because they know it’s a poker game, and poker is played best when you don’t show your cards. Men know this. So for a woman to show her hand because she thinks it’ll help her win the game, it’s a foolish move.

       This is a woman warning other women. And she’s not doing this in a sexist or demeaning way. She’s smart and savvy. She’s written for Harper’s Bazaar, Details, Newsweek, Salon, Slate, The Daily Beast, Variety, and The Atlantic. TIME.com named her one of the best bloggers of the year in 2008. She’s appeared on CNN, NPR, and “Politically Incorrect.” What she is doing is telling her fellow women an important truth: men are playing the game of salaries in the workplace, and they’re winning. Part of the reason they’re winning is they know how to play poker, and you don’t show your hand. So if you want to beat the men at their own game, then don’t share your salary with others.

       You’re welcome to read it a different way, Roger, but I’m pretty sure what I’ve described above is the way the author intended her editorial to be read.

       And with that, I have chicken tikka masala with cauliflower, caramelized onions, and brown rice simmering on the stove…an it smells delicious!

22. Mario says:
    April 21, 2017 at 5:09 pm

    Jo, if you rent a house, or an apartment, do you get the deposit back before you are moved out? No, cause the landlord has to go in and verify that the place is decent, clean, and ready to be re-rented, before you can get your money back. It’s the same thing with AP’s landlord. He said he’d be willing to pay some back for the improvements, but he, and probably another contractor, will have to go through the building, see what was added, and changed, and come to an agreed upon estimate for the re-imbursement to give to AP for that. It’s the same as when you own a home, and you improve the home by adding a deck to it, or building a new garage for it. The local county/state assessor has to inspect the property, and compare it to similary styled houses, for improvements, and such, to figure out the value of the home, for proper taxation. So it doesn’t matter if you rent, or own, the process is still the same. Your not given hard numbers, till they do their thing. You wouldn’t go buy a card from someone that said you can get it for 500 bucks, without checking it out first would you?

    Huh. I get that. Thanks, eh?

    1. I don’t think I said any of that.

23. “Mario says:
    April 25, 2017 at 6:39 am
    I don’t think I said any of that.”

    Oh, wait. What did I do? I thought I had directly copied/pasted.

    brb…….

    Here is the link to the comment I was responding to:
    https://fanfilmfactor.com/2017/04/20/alec-peters-answers-reader-questions-about-the-axanar-financials/#comment-7688

    Which comment I ‘thought’ was responding to Jo Moine https://fanfilmfactor.com/2017/04/20/alec-peters-answers-reader-questions-about-the-axanar-financials/#comment-7642

    I see I had forgotten to add quotes around the comment to separate it from my response: “Huh. I get that. Thanks, eh?”

    If there is a mix-up and I flubbed up, apologies!

    1. I was dumb. Didn’t notice that there are two people posting under the name Mario.

24. Yeah, I totally ‘get’ where your coming from about this. Totally empathize with you too, being on the receiving end myself coming the other way.

25. “Mario says:
    April 25, 2017 at 7:23 pm
    “I was dumb. Didn’t notice that there are two people posting under the name Mario.”

    Hello, Mario.
    Appreciate you responding.

    I’m going to take issue with your first sentence in your quote here. (which I ‘remembered’ to put in quotes this time 😆 ) You, sir, are ‘not’ dumb! I read your comments. Often full of insight for me on your perspective as we stand apart regarding thiswholething. Which I greatly value!!!

26. And now I have to correct another of my comments that, you know, I did wrong.

    I clicked the ‘reply’ indicator directly under the comment I was responding to…. and it ended up at the end of the comment section instead. And makes no sense because it looks like I’m replying to a different comment. Which now looks like a non-nonsensical reply. So I’ve now learned something new. (in addition to the putting in quotes thing I just previously had to learn)

    “Brian Heite says:
    April 24, 2017 at 10:50 pm”

    “TYGR, indeed they are back to square one, minus all the money spent on a year of rent, and improvements made to keep moving towrads production. Now, that is gone, and they will have to go back to the well, as well as listen to the continual diatribes from people who do not have any connection to the situation. I believe they think they can exact their pound of flesh by making sure nothing gets made, so they can say “told you”.”

    Yeah, I totally ‘get’ where your coming from about this. Totally empathize with you too, being on the receiving end myself coming the other way.

    Always your fellow Star Trek fan

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